Have people given up all hope?

[Rose of Red Lake]

4 minutes ago, Hodor the Articulate said:

I feel like too many people read Dany's last chapter without considering what her whole arc in ADWD was about. The Meereen arc starts with her shedding her "fire and blood" dragon identity to focus on her Mhysa one. Throughout the book, she struggles because she's having an identity crisis, same as all the other protagonists. So by the end, when she's all "remember your words", she's not becoming extra cruel or heartless. She's just taking back her dragon side. Essentially, she's going back to where she was before she stopped in Meereen, because that is what is needed to defeat the slavers. "To go forward, I must go back."

It remains to be seen if her "dragon side" effectively ends slavery in one fell swoop. I seriously doubt it will.

The show made it look like "burn them all" solved that problem. "Burn them all," genocide, is the answer, or something...ok. Even though the author has said dragons can never be used to help build or improve - just destroy - they end up building and improving somehow. Then she left and we're supposed to believe her leaving isn't problematic or anything? That the sellsword she dumped is really excelling at ruling there?

In ADWD she rules well and effectively without dragons. She made progress without dragons. That progress was incremental but it was also meaningful. She married into the nobility, opened the fighting pits, paid former slaves wages - the author gave her achievements without having her mass murder. She just didn't see it as meaningful though. She wanted everything changed across all three cities, over night. She can't handle the realpolitik of ruling. She threw it away when she rode off on Drogon. He burned 200 something people when she was on his back. She didn't notice the carnage, because she closed her eyes. Then later, she said she'd do it all over again because flying dragons was a joy ride. 

[sifth]

2 hours ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

What's the difference between losing your temper and murdering one person versus losing your temper and murdering ten people? 

Or a thousand? Or a million?

I think we're using "losing your mind" strangely here. We're talking about evil, not about insanity.

You’re saying she killed those people because she’s evil? If so the show is even more poorly written than I thought.

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

You’re either a troll or a crazy person. I’m going to be polite and go with the former. Yea, it’s perfectly sane to murder millions of innocent people in one day. What was I possibly thinking.

Right, just like Truman was insane.  Makes sense, pal.

[Argonath Diver]

2 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

 

Many atrocities are illogical though, I think GRRM would still write it like that. I think she realized the people would never love her so she wanted to rule by fear. That created a justification/cover in her own mind to do what she really wanted, which was punish "en masse" for losing her dragon and Missandei.  She knows Jon is the true heir and that he's more loved and that his secret is out. Dany can't handle these stresses and succumbs to power.

"In place of the Dark Lord you will set up a Queen. And I shall not be dark, but beautiful and terrible as the Morning and the Night! Fair as the Sea and the Sun and the Snow upon the Mountain! Dreadful as the Storm and the Lightning! Stronger than the foundations of the earth. All shall love me and despair!”

"Jeez, mom, fine I'll go do the dishes, gosh!"  *storms to the kitchen fiercely rolling eyes

[sifth]

Just now, CrypticWeirwood said:

Right, just like Truman was insane.  Makes sense, pal.

Read my edit. Your post confused me at first.

[sifth]

2 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Right, just like Truman was insane.  Makes sense, pal.

Truman warned Japan and they didn’t listen. What warning did these people have?

[CrypticWeirwood]

7 minutes ago, sifth said:

You’re saying she killed those people because she’s evil? If so the show is even more poorly written than I thought.

"Evil" is a rather facile shortcut term. The point is that military commanders throughout history, including up to modern times, have very often murdered multitudes of innocent civilians when doing so suited their purposes. 

Nobody calls those people insane. What word would you prefer were used for those who commit such actions?

[Wsc48]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

Truman warned Japan and they didn’t listen. What warning did these people have?

Yeah, I brought this up immediately after watching. The equivalent here would be the US dropping the bombs after Japan surrendered. 

An irredeemable act. Daenerys is destroyed as a protagonist. Now she will likely die. But yay! 

Expectations subverted. 

[sifth]

3 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

"Evil" is a rather facile shortcut term. The point is that military commanders throughout history, including up to modern times, have very often murdered multitudes of innocent civilians when doing so suited their purposes. 

Nobody calls those people insane. What word would you prefer were used for those who commit such actions?

We saw her murder innocent people and surrendering soldiers just for shits and giggles. Yea she’s perfectly right in the head.

[Adam_Up_Bxtch]

I knew I wasn't getting the ending I wanted halfway through Season 5. Ramsay's "20 Good men" beating Stannis made me realize D&D don't understand this story, these characters or the world and without GRRM's hand holding will destroy every character and storyline they get their hands on.

Which they have done with flying colors turning every character into a caricature of the actor portraying them.

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

We saw her murder innocent people and surrendering soldiers just for shits and giggles. Yea she’s perfectly right in the head.

You have not answered my question.

[CrypticWeirwood]

2 minutes ago, sifth said:

We saw her murder innocent people and surrendering soldiers just for shits and giggles. Yea she’s perfectly right in the head.

Look at history.  That's what really happens in these situations.

What are we to call these people?  They aren't insane, and you don't like evil.

[CrypticWeirwood]

9 minutes ago, Wsc48 said:

Yeah, I brought this up immediately after watching. The equivalent here would be the US dropping the bombs after Japan surrendered. 

An irredeemable act. Daenerys is destroyed as a protagonist. Now she will likely die. But yay! 

Expectations subverted. 

So the protagonists always live but the antagonists always die? Is that how this works?  That sounds a bit unrealistic of life if you ask me.

Or maybe it's like how comedies always end in weddings and tragedies in deaths.

If Dany gets a piece of dragonglass stuck into her heart after she's killed the way Benjen did so that she rises as a sort of ice-wight, and then she and Jon the fire-wight go off to spend their days somewhere in the far north where nobody will find them for a thousand years, then you get all the bits combined: weddings of dead people!

Is that comedy or tragedy?  Bitter or sweet?

[Hodor the Articulate]

46 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

It remains to be seen if her "dragon side" effectively ends slavery in one fell swoop. I seriously doubt it will.

The show made it look like "burn them all" solved that problem. "Burn them all," genocide, is the answer, or something...ok. Even though the author has said dragons can never be used to help build or improve - just destroy - they end up building and improving somehow. Then she left and we're supposed to believe her leaving isn't problematic or anything? That the sellsword she dumped is really excelling at ruling there?

In ADWD she rules well and effectively without dragons. She made progress without dragons. That progress was incremental but it was also meaningful. She married into the nobility, opened the fighting pits, paid former slaves wages - the author gave her achievements without having her mass murder. She just didn't see it as meaningful though. She wanted everything changed across all three cities, over night. She can't handle the realpolitik of ruling. She threw it away when she rode off on Drogon. He burned 200 something people when she was on his back. She didn't notice the carnage, because she closed her eyes. Then later, she said she'd do it all over again because flying dragons was a joy ride. 

I see you've been reading the Meereenese Blot. Dany does indeed show competence in her day-to-day duties. Ultimately, though, her changes were slowing being reverted because she hadn't fully dismantled the original power structures, having left the ruling class largely intact with all their wealth and power. No incremental steps could have been taken to rectify the situation, because her enemy's goal was not to bring peace but to oust her and bring back slavery. She should have never re-opened the pits, nor should she have locked up her biggest power source. We can see from Aegon V's failures to give smallfolk more rights, that dragons are necessary for that sort of reform.

It's pretty obvious in the books she's going to rally the Dothraki and re-take the city... if there is anything to re-take, that is. There's probably going to be a slave revolt in Volantis too, and we don't know how Moqorro, Tyrion, and Victarion will factor into this, but that's how the SB arc will end.

ETA: And that's not what genocide is.

[sifth]

20 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Look at history.  That's what really happens in these situations.

What are we to call these people?  They aren't insane, and you don't like evil.

It's equally f'd up when it happens in history as well, you're just making excuses at this point or are you honestly saying there is no such thing as a war crime? Because to me that seems to be what you're saying.

I also am amused that you are relying on a clickbait article to defend your point.

[CrypticWeirwood]

1 minute ago, sifth said:

It's equally f'd up when it happens in history was well, you're just making excuses at this point or are you honestly saying there is no such thing as a war crime? Because to me that seems to be what you're saying.

I am absolutely not trying to say that there is no such thing as a war crime.

I am saying that it's wrong to call those people "insane". After all, if they were truly insane, they could never stand trial, and think of all the ones who've gone to trial for those crimes.

I used a shortcut of "evil" that to me works better than "insane". You didn't like that word. Find a word that works.

 

[sifth]

1 minute ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I am absolutely not trying to say that there is no such thing as a war crime.

I am saying that it's wrong to call those people "insane". After all, if they were truly insane, they could never stand trial, and think of all the ones who've gone to trial for those crimes.

I used a shortcut of "evil" that to me works better than "insane". You didn't like that word. Find a word that works.

 

Fine call her evil for all I care, it was still the most f'd up thing I've seen on tv in recent memory.

[Wsc48]

21 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

So the protagonists always live but the antagonists always die?

I meant no correlation between the two. But I imagine since they've made such a spectacle of Arya surviving everything many times over, she'll probably die. Everything is based on subverting expectations. It's unfortunate. 

Like if I went to a nice restaurant and was expecting a great meal. Then the waiter dumped a pile of garbage on my plate. That's this season. 

Expectations subverted.  

[Wsc48]

16 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Find a word that works.

Sociopath?

[Tywin Tytosson]

Some things are a bit rushed, but overall I am enjoying this season.  Is it perfect?  No.  But that doesn't bother me.  So to answer the OP's question - no, I haven't given up all hope.  I haven' given up any hope.