The Marquis de Leech Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 minute ago, Green Knight said: Again, so was Hitler. That was my point. Your point was that grandiose claims masks naked will to power. Daenerys' grandiose claims are completely sincere. Hitler was thoroughly insincere, a la Cersei. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneColdJorahMormont Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Just now, The Marquis de Leech said: If it was simply vengeance, she'd have murdered Jaime and Tyrion without batting an eyelid. Like cersei would have shot tyrion down outside the gates instead of sending bronn on a half chance to get him. There is obviously poor writing as when Jaime tried to escape he would never had been held prisoner he would have been executed quicker than varys.. but Jaime had to reunite with cersei. I can excuse these tiny little things for plot but danys is massive and I needed to at least justify it somehow and it's the best I've got lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StoneColdJorahMormont Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Also it wasn't just Dany that attacked despite the surrender the north men also did so. Jon tried to get them to stay back and they were having none of it.. they attacked soldiers and innocents as seen by Jon pulling one of them of a woman. I guess even the civilians are not deemed completely innocent for standing by while their homelands were oppressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erkan12 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said: Also it wasn't just Dany that attacked despite the surrender the north men also did so. Jon tried to get them to stay back and they were having none of it.. they attacked soldiers and innocents as seen by Jon pulling one of them of a woman. I guess even the civilians are not deemed completely innocent for standing by while their homelands were oppressed. Gee, I wonder why Northerners hates Lannisters this much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Knight Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said: Your point was that grandiose claims masks naked will to power. Daenerys' grandiose claims are completely sincere. Hitler was thoroughly insincere, a la Cersei. Oh, thanks for telling me what my point was. Glad you’re here to clear things up for me... (insert eye roll here) Yes Hitler was sincere in his beliefs. Just because he was mad and evil doesn’t mean he was insincere. Mad evil people have principles they adhere to as well regardless of how misguided or wrong they may be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Marquis de Leech Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Green Knight said: Oh, thanks for telling me what my point was. Glad you’re here to clear things up for me... (insert eye roll here) Yes Hitler was sincere in his beliefs. Just because he was mad and evil doesn’t mean he was insincere. Mad evil people have principles they adhere to as well regardless of how misguided or wrong they may be. Oh, I do apologise for interpreting your point as you wrote it. Hitler was so principled in his beliefs that he declared the Japanese "honorary Aryans", and signed a non-aggression pact with the very Bolsheviks he was sworn to destroy. History is littered with sincere fanatics, but Hitler wasn't one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Knight Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said: Oh, I do apologise for interpreting your point as you wrote it. Hitler was so principled in his beliefs that he declared the Japanese "honorary Aryans", and signed a non-aggression pact with the very Bolsheviks he was sworn to destroy. History is littered with sincere fanatics, but Hitler wasn't one of them. I know it’s very stylish to never attribute anything that could even remotely be construed as a positive attribute to Hitler regardless of truth or whether it actually even is positive. Just as long as the perception is, it’s off limits. Despite what you may think, Hitler, like most every other human being was not one dimensional. He had reasons and beliefs and acted on them the way he saw fit just as you and I would. I suspect that to him the ends justified the means. In his mind the end would result in a better world than the one he lived in. Like I said, he was mad. I guess we can agree to disagree on this one. You can have the last word. I’m not interested in going around in circles... edited to add add that he believed lying to achieve a higher purpose was not only acceptable but commendable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wsc48 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 hours ago, The Marquis de Leech said: Of freeing people from tyranny. She did free them. She just did it by killing them. She was never very specific as to how she was going to free them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lady Rhodes Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 hours ago, Mystical said: I've never rooted for Dany, except at the very beginning when she was an abused girl being sold for her brother's gain. I've said this elsewhere in another threat. People always celebrated Dany's actions because while in Essos, Dany's enemies were slavers, slave traders and barbarians. So of course many people shouted 'yaaaasss queen' when she did something to them. Now that she is in Westeros with characters the audience cares about, with a completely different type of 'enemy', her actions looks different to a lot of people. Like someone woke them out of a coma. The speed in which this is unfolding is of course bananas. But it really shouldn't surprise anyone that Dany went this way. This is what I mean, though. I am in agreement with you. (although I did root for Dany, so I am part of the problem, but I digress) I have a lot of problems with this show the past few seasons, and I don't think they did this arc well. That said, I do think this arc has been intended. I think we are supposed to root for her when she does these things, we (as in the collective, not all audience viewers and readers) cheer when actually...she has a very defined cruel streak. Sometimes it is justified or justifiable. Now that we are forced to confront this streak when it has been turned on the other side that we have focused on for all these seasons, we see in stark (har har) contrast how awful and brutal some of the things she does are. I think her true nature is kindhearted and benevolent. But when this streak presents itself, she goes scorched earth (no pun intended). What I think the show will do: have Jon kill her. What I think will happen in the books: she will be abjectly horrified at what she realizes she has done and flees on Drogon, never to return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 This whole thing made no sense. If she had heard the bells and then hgon for the red keep and destroyed it in a fit of rage to kill cersei it would have made sense. Instead she goes after civilians first and hits the red keep last. They made her worse then aerys since aerys had lost and was gonna go out with a bang but dany had won and suddenly goes into a fit of rage and burns down the city and it's people for no reason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 10 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said: Why? Because of Aerys II? Jon in the books idolized the Targaryens. And many of them burned people alive with their dragons. It's kind of their staple. Where, in the books, has Jon “idolized” the Targaryens? Specific textual references, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said: Also it wasn't just Dany that attacked despite the surrender the north men also did so. Jon tried to get them to stay back and they were having none of it.. they attacked soldiers and innocents as seen by Jon pulling one of them of a woman. I guess even the civilians are not deemed completely innocent for standing by while their homelands were oppressed. The northman had intended to let the lannisters surrender but when dany started up and then grey worm attacked the lannisters some of the northman took it as "keep going" Then the lannister soldiers fought back which is completely understandable and the rest of the northman started up and the bloodlust started up. To jons credit he tried to stop it and even killed one of his men. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Where, in the books, has Jon “idolized” the Targaryens? Specific textual references, please. I think he is talking about in book one where jon was talking about how the young dragon was his idol or something. I don't think he idolizes the targs though. And he has changed alot since then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
divica Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Where, in the books, has Jon “idolized” the Targaryens? Specific textual references, please. Several targs are seens as heroes... Just like arya idolizes some targ Queens jon idolizes targs like aemon the dragonknight... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 10 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Where, in the books, has Jon “idolized” the Targaryens? Specific textual references, please. A Game of Thrones, chapter 5 A Game of Thrones, chapter 60 A Storm of Swords, chapter 79 A Dance with Dragons, chapter 7 A Dance with Dragons, chapter 35 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 6 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said: I think people forget that a 1 hour episode could take place over days/weeks... I have no problem with Dany going full meltdown... if you can believe people can travel across seas and arrive at destinations in the space of one episode or even less I don't see how believing she had a meltdown is impossible. She lost her children, her closest friends, felt completely alone, was paranoid about her current advisors and rightly so, found out her only meaning in life was no longer true and someone else was the rightful heir, been shown hostility and contempt by the people she wanted to rule and help again rightly so they fear her name because of her fathers actions, been raped, been pimped out, been plotted against since birth to be killed.... the list is endless. We should be asking why she didn't turn sooner. The speed of travel in the later seasons of this show has pissed me off frequently. It has made Westeros seem very, very, small. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 33 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said: A Game of Thrones, chapter 5 A Game of Thrones, chapter 60 A Storm of Swords, chapter 79 A Dance with Dragons, chapter 7 A Dance with Dragons, chapter 35 You need to be more specific than that. Page number, please. And are those showing “idolization” of individual Targaryens, or of House Targaryen as a whole? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: You need to be more specific than that. Page number, please. And are those showing “idolization” of individual Targaryens, or of House Targaryen as a whole? The individuals make the whole. Everyone knows that. Why don't you? Read the chapters yourself. You might actually learn something. Because me giving you page numbers might lead you to forgo context clues and in-between-the-lines implications. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ser Scot A Ellison Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said: The individuals make the whole. Everyone knows that. Why don't you? Read the chapters yourself. You might actually learn something. Because me giving you page numbers might lead you to forgo context clues and in-between-the-lines implications. Gosh, liking particular individuals is quite different from “idolizing” an entire group. If I say I think Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and Dwight Eisenhower were great Presidents it doesn’t, therefore, mean I “idolize” all Republican Presidents. That’s a “fallacy of composition”. If I don’t know your specific references then I have no clue what you mean when you claim Jon “idolized” the Targaryens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlackLightning Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, Ser Scot A Ellison said: Gosh, liking particular individuals is quite different from “idolizing” an entire group. If I say I think Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt, and Dwight Eisenhower were great Presidents it doesn’t, therefore, mean I “idolize” all Republican Presidents. That’s a “fallacy of composition”. If I don’t know your specific references then I have no clue what you mean when you claim Jon “idolized” the Targaryens. I told you the books and the chapters where we see Jon idolize and dream of being the Targaryens but you don't want to investigate. Fine. Read the AWOIAF wiki. Jon idolizes Daeron the Young Dragon and Aemon the Dragonknight just like Sansa idolizes Cersei. Jon compares himself to Aegon V and is drawn to Maester Aemon because of his perspective on the Targaryens. Oh and I also forgot A Dance with Dragons, chapter 44 when Jon meets with Tycho Nestoris from the Iron Bank. Jon has a very idealistic, happy-go-lucky view of dragons because of his admiration (possibly borderline envy) of the military might of Aegon the Conqueror and Jaehaerys the Conciliator. He even cracks a joke about it. Tycho, a Braavosi man, doesn't appreciate the joke or Jon's attitude towards dragons. So he gives Jon an abrupt history lesson that shuts Jon up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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