Dany's Descent.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

When she found out of Jorah's betrayal she banished him, when she found out of Varys betrayal she had him killed.

This shows how far she has gone off the rails... she is no longer thinking about being a different kind of ruler she is just concerned about ruling no matter what it takes now.

[Pontius Pilate]

Trying to make sense of the show's script is futile.  

[Hodor's Dragon]

42 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

When she found out of Jorah's betrayal she banished him, when she found out of Varys betrayal she had him killed.

This shows how far she has gone off the rails... she is no longer thinking about being a different kind of ruler she is just concerned about ruling no matter what it takes now.

Uh, she found out about Jorah's betrayal years after he had happened and he had given her loyal, selfless service since and didn't know her at the long-ago time he betrayed her.

Whereas Varys was in the midst of actively participating in a plot to have her deposed, most likely via death. After working closely with her for a long period of time.

Don't you see a little distinction?

[Minsc]

1 minute ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Uh, she found out about Jorah's betrayal years after he had happened and he had given her loyal, selfless service since and didn't know her at the long-ago time he betrayed her.

Whereas Varys was in the midst of actively participating in a plot to have her deposed, most likely via death. After working closely with her for a long period of time.

Don't you see a little distinction?

Also, Varys has been pretty useless the entire he has been with her and he had worked against before in the past.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

1 minute ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Uh, she found out about Jorah's betrayal years after he had happened and he had given her loyal, selfless service since and didn't know her at the long-ago time he betrayed her.

Whereas Varys was in the midst of actively participating in a plot to have her deposed, most likely via death. After working closely with her for a long period of time.

Don't you see a little distinction?

If she had caught Varys plotting against her before they set sail for westeros do you believe she would have given the same sentence ? she would have cut him off and told him never to return im sure.

[Smoke317]

And technically Varys was in the middle of trying to have her poisoned by the little girl to start the episode.  If not for her depression ruining her appetite, she’d be dead.

[Anthony Pirtle]

Burning Varys was totally reasonable, I think. He was trying to organize a coup. That wasn't the thing she did that concerned me about episode 5. It was that other thing. 

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

10 minutes ago, Anthony Pirtle said:

Burning Varys was totally reasonable, I think. He was trying to organize a coup. That wasn't the thing she did that concerned me about episode 5. It was that other thing. 

lol oh I agree 100 percent but I still feel the moment she landed in Westeros,felt unloved and alone was her undoing,

[Nihiloth90]

1 hour ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

When she found out of Jorah's betrayal she banished him, when she found out of Varys betrayal she had him killed.

Jorah had been her close adviser for a while. How is that the same thing?

 

I don't know how your thread got approved before mine.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

27 minutes ago, Nihiloth90 said:

Jorah had been her close adviser for a while. How is that the same thing?

 

I don't know how your thread got approved before mine.

Because you have 29 posts and I have been posting on here for years ?

 

Anyways I'm not arguing her closeness to Jorah and Varys, however before she left Essos she was in the right frame of mind, Since arriving in Westeros she has became unhinged, If Jorah had survived the last episode and his betrayal hadn't already been revealed until this episode do you honestly believe he wouldn't had been joining Varys on that post ?

 

As I posted in another discussion 

I don't know exactly how much time passed since her arrival in Westeros so I cant judge how fast her descent was, but I think a mixture of paranoia, feeling alone, death of loved ones, losing her grip on what she felt was her purpose and birth right.. death of 2 of her children... is plenty to drive even the purist of people evil.

I agree that it was a pretty rapid decline however so much of the above did happen in 2 episodes, so if all these things can and needed to happen in 2 hours then I can certainly believe she could lose it in the same space of time.... the question is how long was 2 hours in our time in show time ?

[House Cambodia]

2 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

When she found out of Jorah's betrayal she banished him, when she found out of Varys betrayal she had him killed.

Yes, and I thought the script did well to have her repeat the term 'betray'. This is her psychology now - seeing personal betrayal everywhere and in everyone. Her so-called 'madness' is really extreme paranoia and she's turned it into a self-fulfilling prophecy.

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

Damn!

I wasn't convinced of the mad queen but Dany went full on burn them all. Nice tie in in to her father with the hidden wild fire from him blowing up while she attacked with a dragon. Now we know who Arya has to kill.

[adiman83]

1 hour ago, Anthony Pirtle said:

Burning Varys was totally reasonable, I think. He was trying to organize a coup. That wasn't the thing she did that concerned me about episode 5. It was that other thing. 

Last season she did tell him he will burn if he betrays her. She kept her promise.

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

2 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

When she found out of Jorah's betrayal she banished him, when she found out of Varys betrayal she had him killed.

This shows how far she has gone off the rails... she is no longer thinking about being a different kind of ruler she is just concerned about ruling no matter what it takes now.

She didn't love Varys. Varys never built her up the way Jorah did. Jorah planted the idea of her being queen in the first place. Nobody loves Varys, slippery fish that he was. That was always going to be the ending of Varys, it was just a matter of which ruler caught him.

[House Cambodia]

4 minutes ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

She didn't love Varys. Varys never built her up the way Jorah did. Jorah planted the idea of her being queen in the first place. Nobody loves Varys, slippery fish that he was. That was always going to be the ending of Varys, it was just a matter of which ruler caught him.

Well, Varys has survived through numerous monarchs and intrigues by keeping his true thoughts to himself. It was quite out of character for him to suddenly openly pin his beliefs to the mast. It was inevitable he'd pay for that.

[Winter prince]

3 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

When she found out of Jorah's betrayal she banished him, when she found out of Varys betrayal she had him killed.

This shows how far she has gone off the rails... she is no longer thinking about being a different kind of ruler she is just concerned about ruling no matter what it takes now.

She also told Varys if he betrayed her what would happen...

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

3 hours ago, Stark_in_Winterfell said:

Damn!

 

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I wasn't convinced of the mad queen but Dany went full on burn them all. Nice tie in in to her father with the hidden wild fire from him blowing up while she attacked with a dragon. Now we know who Arya has to kill.

Yes and people are obviously questioning why she didn't just fly straight for cersei but torched everyone, I guess the moment the bells sounded it might have triggered some Ptsd, I imagine she heard the exact same bells toll when her father was over thrown and she and her brother got transported to Essos... there may have been cheering from the smallfolk when this happened due to the King going crazy.

Those memories mixed with how she was currently feeling = Burn them all... that or she just wanted to make sure she took out every KL Guard to prevent an easy takeover and no chance of retaliation. 

[theladyinspring]

She didn't go "mad" until she decided to keep burning the people and the city after they'd surrendered. Killing Varys was not a sign of "madness". He had literally been trying to poison her for several days at that point. She killed him in exactly the way she said she would for exactly the reason she said she would. And when she said that to him she wasn't mad then either. And I repeat, Varys was actively trying to kill her (also actively fomenting rebellion) and would have absolutely continued doing the same if she tried to exile him. He had to die, any monarch would do it, even Ned would do it without a second thought. Not a sign of madness. 

But the show did play dark music and the setting was very dark and grim, I'll grant that.

[House Cambodia]

2 minutes ago, theladyinspring said:

She didn't go "mad" until she decided to keep burning the people and the city after they'd surrendered. Killing Varys was not a sign of "madness". He had literally been trying to poison her for several days at that point. She killed him in exactly the way she said she would for exactly the reason she said she would. And when she said that to him she wasn't mad then either. And I repeat, Varys was actively trying to kill her (also actively fomenting rebellion) and would have absolutely continued doing the same if she tried to exile him. He had to die, any monarch would do it, even Ned would do it without a second thought. Not a sign of madness. 

But the show did play dark music and the setting was very dark and grim, I'll grant that.

Well, I'd say she didn't display a "mad" ACTION until after the surrender bells. It's harder to point to a breaking point re. her state of mind. But what I'd say about her decision to execute Varys is that this was an indication of her severe paranoia getting out of control. Now look at where I live - we had the Khmer Rouge, so I know the psychology here - as you get increasingly paranoid and see enemies everywhere - and execute them - you create a self-fulfilling prophecy whereby those who were not your enemies become just that. So I'm saying "going mad" is a gradual process and she was showing increasingly alarming signs. This is why, it's entirely in keeping with my understanding, that the one she loves most, Jon, will be the last one she suspects of betrayal and he will have to kill her.

[Stark_in_Winterfell]

1 hour ago, theladyinspring said:

She didn't go "mad" until she decided to keep burning the people and the city after they'd surrendered. Killing Varys was not a sign of "madness". He had literally been trying to poison her for several days at that point. She killed him in exactly the way she said she would for exactly the reason she said she would. And when she said that to him she wasn't mad then either. And I repeat, Varys was actively trying to kill her (also actively fomenting rebellion) and would have absolutely continued doing the same if she tried to exile him. He had to die, any monarch would do it, even Ned would do it without a second thought. Not a sign of madness. 

But the show did play dark music and the setting was very dark and grim, I'll grant that.

Oh yeah Varys had that coming. If madness can be characterized by her intense anger and ruthless response then she was teetering on fits of madness for awhile. But there was reason behind every upset.

Until kings landing and then she says ahhh eff it burn them all. That seems to be unreasonable, lacking restraint.

The best way to debate that is consider all examples of madness by Joffery and Aegon and compare to Dany. Is she exerting power or pushing the line. The realm remembers so they are not going to accept the early warning signs as reasonable. I think it can be argued that she slowly slipped i to it. Her losses hurt too much and her support system too weak. Even in the books she considers how lonely she is and how all the love shown her is dutiful or subservient and she craved companionship and genuine affection of equals.