Rant & Rave without Repercussion: Burn It All Edition

[Dragons Are Real]

 

14 hours ago, Pandean said:

Sweet fucking jesus Christ.

There is no way this can possibly go well. WHO THOUGHT it was a good idea to let two white guys who cannot write nuanced political themes, female characters, sexuality and sexual violence, and just about everything that's sensitive well, be in charge of a topic that would need to be handled with a level 4 CDC level of cautiousness??

There's a thread in general from last year or the year before, whenever Confederate came up, about what a horrible idea it was.  I mean, the concept is sound enough in an alt-universe way if it could have been handled by grown ups and done in a way to bring attention to real issues and get discussion going, but you and I know these shitlords literally dreamt it up as an excuse to use the 'n' word as often as possible while having white guys constantly raping their black slaves.  That's the concept that you know they were salivating over.  They're too stupid to have any more depth than that.

14 hours ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

Here you go, brand new article about the coming Star Wars movie and the Confederate deal that is said to officially be delayed and up in the air.  I am certain the subject of the Civil War and a continuing Confederate gov't with slavery is something they should stay away from, for sure.  It seems Star Wars will not be so lucky. 

https://io9.gizmodo.com/the-first-star-wars-films-after-rise-of-skywalker-will-1834749699

And thank the lord somebody came up with a way to put the brakes on Confederate.  Hell, maybe Disney heard about it and tossed the Star Wars grenade their way just to prevent it from happening?

12 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

What Star Wars material is there left to adapt?

Old video games? Oh, yes, they can be totally trusted to adapt tangential stories taken from video game cut-scenes and gamer magazine walkthroughs into a coherent, powerfully written and produced epic trilogy

The old Timothy Zahn novels were pretty darned good and I don't think anything has come along that truly captures the essence of what they accomplished.  Of course the story was handed off to hack idiots and destroyed later, but at least those first couple/three books were pretty spectacular.  Not that there's anyway to shoehorn them into continuity at this point, but they exist.

8 hours ago, Pandean said:

So can we talk for a second about how Jon has the emotional range of a piece of cardboard, needs to fucking USE HIS WORDS, and in general has become basically a broody potato?

Like I don't think it's his fault that Dany did what she did but boy oh boy maybe USE YOUR WORDS and talk to Dany about why you don't want to fuck her and that you're having an identity crisis because maybe that nice emotional heart-to-heart will help with the situation instead of just sullenly pulling away and repeating she's your queen with a face that looks like you've been unable to shit properly for a month.

Just. The relationship already had zero chemistry but it feels like Jon isn't even trying. No wonder there's that gif of Kit Harrington's dismayed face as he reads the script for the first time at the table reading.

I mean it wasn't like Jon was a paragon of emotional intelligence before but at this point he's got the emotional range and intelligence god gave an empty fiber one cereal box.

The entire reason he has nothing but broody faces to offer this year is because that's what D&D like.  They don't like dialog.  In fact, they think it's stupid and think that the actors, with no motivation and no idea what their characters roles or intentions should be, are supposed to express all of the story through their faces.  They've literally said so before, that facial expression is far more important than dialog.  How these idiots ever got to this point is beyond me.

22 minutes ago, Wsc48 said:

This could have been done. Sansa convinces Jon to flee with the north to the Iron Islands held by Yara. The dead army proceeds south unopposed. 

As it is the south has no idea anything even happened. 

This has been bugging the hell out of me.  Since the beginning of the show there was a huge "disbelief" of the threat in the north that anyone with actual knowledge of it was fighting against.  Now that whole story is just gone, without purpose, because D&D were too stupid to understand the significance of it.  Honestly, I don't think they even remember that it happened.  Just like they don't remember details episode to episode.

[Mr. Chatywin et al.]

10 hours ago, Rockroi said:

This evidence and this theory are wanting. 

This was a terrible heel turn with virtually no foundation.  

You do realize the point of that Tweet was to show that in every season, there were signs that this was inside of her. It was not to document every incident of hers, and there are several more. People have been speculating for years whether or not she would turn into a Mad Queen. The trail is there even if the execution was done poorly.

[Lady Fevre Dream]

9 hours ago, Pandean said:

So can we talk for a second about how Jon has the emotional range of a piece of cardboard, needs to fucking USE HIS WORDS, and in general has become basically a broody potato?

Like I don't think it's his fault that Dany did what she did but boy oh boy maybe USE YOUR WORDS and talk to Dany about why you don't want to fuck her and that you're having an identity crisis because maybe that nice emotional heart-to-heart will help with the situation instead of just sullenly pulling away and repeating she's your queen with a face that looks like you've been unable to shit properly for a month.

Just. The relationship already had zero chemistry but it feels like Jon isn't even trying. No wonder there's that gif of Kit Harrington's dismayed face as he reads the script for the first time at the table reading.

I mean it wasn't like Jon was a paragon of emotional intelligence before but at this point he's got the emotional range and intelligence god gave an empty fiber one cereal box.

I'm not sure why Jon gets a lot of shit for not having sex with a woman in a shaky emotional state?  Considering how the Ds do go with that lack of dialogue and face acting for most everyone except St Tyrion, we have no idea really on why Jon didn't respond a certain way in that scene.  Unless, of course, we can pry the reasoning out from all the stupid BTS interviews with the Ds that are separate from the actual story. 

[divica]

1 minute ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I'm not sure why Jon gets a lot of shit for not having sex with a woman in a shaky emotional state?  Considering how the Ds do go with that lack of dialogue and face acting for most everyone except St Tyrion, we have no idea really on why Jon didn't respond a certain way in that scene.  Unless, of course, we can pry the reasoning out from all the stupid BTS interviews with the Ds that are separate from the actual story. 

That is the whole problem with jon's arc this season. We just have no idea how he is feeling and it looks like the writers just want to force problems in his relation with danny so that she can go mad...

Even if at the moment he had problems with being intimate with her because they are related it wouldn t mean he loves her less… There wouldn t be a reason for them to distance themselves and mentally break danny…

The season is just to poorly written… IT doesn t fit with what happens in S7. IT is really weird for several characters...

[Lady Fevre Dream]

1 hour ago, Nightwish said:

Actually I think I can hear the show runners:

-Dany goes bersek?

- Why does she go bersek?

-Who cares why she goes bersek? Give it to fans, they will think of something.  

-Right. And then we have Jamie, he returns to Cersei. Isn't that dumb?

- Well put him to say he is the dumbest of all the Lanisters. 

-Yes, we will use his line from another episode, so it's a full closure. They will love it. 

-Varys...

-Ditch him. Flame him with that dragon. 

-It doesn't make sense though for his character...

-Who cares for his character?

-What Jon will be doing?

-Give him a sword he will find something.

 

LOL  Loved it all, but damn, the Jon line killed me. 

[Cas Stark]

That's a problem the show has had for some time, people don't have the conversations they should have,  in fact no one has conversations anymore, at most there are bits of stagey dialogue exchanged and that's it.  

[Lady Fevre Dream]

7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

That's a problem the show has had for some time, people don't have the conversations they should have,  in fact no one has conversations anymore, at most there are bits of stagey dialogue exchanged and that's it.  

Exactly, it's hard to know what people are thinking and feeling when they are consistently prevented from telling us.  If they don't actually cut away from important dialogue, hello to the Last of the Starks gathered in the godswood, they just stare at or away from each other for an awkward amount of time, leaving us to decipher it out or wait until the scripts are published or the Inside the Episode crap is released. 

In a few days...........it's over.  Well, except for all the interviews and behind the scenes segments telling us what really happened, LOL 

[Pandean]

31 minutes ago, Lady Fevre Dream said:

I'm not sure why Jon gets a lot of shit for not having sex with a woman in a shaky emotional state?  Considering how the Ds do go with that lack of dialogue and face acting for most everyone except St Tyrion, we have no idea really on why Jon didn't respond a certain way in that scene.  Unless, of course, we can pry the reasoning out from all the stupid BTS interviews with the Ds that are separate from the actual story. 

But that's the thing. I'm not saying anything about him having sex. I'm saying he could have, y'know, talked to Dany regarding her emotional state or explained why he didn't think he could be with her. Y'know, in general have a chat. 

Because Jon has every right not to want to do anything with Dany, but instead of letting her know why, he's letting this woman wo is already in a fragile emotional state feel once again like she's rejected. A simple "I love you, but you're my aunt." would suffice.

That's my issue. But instead we just get broody sullen Jon doing broody sullen things and being emotionally closed off. 

[House Cambodia]

8 minutes ago, Pandean said:

But instead we just get broody sullen Jon doing broody sullen things and being emotionally closed off. 

Well to be fair, that's exactly what his character is, so the script is true to his character here. In that sense his personal failings as an introvert bear some responsibility for how Dany's turned out and what has befallen KL and the kingdom. That's good complex writing, that.

[JoeyBanana]

I really thought i was at peace with what the show has become. It was actually a lot of fun to laugh at the silly and stupid stuff, enjoy the at times still superb acting and the gory action once i got over how harshly the writing declined in quality. I was like, you can't get to me D&D! Your hackiness has no power here! 

Oh boy was i wrong. This episode really got to me and not in a good way.

Tyrion's treason is arranging an escape for Cersei and Jaime so they can incest happily ever after? What?! Sure okay, do your goody two shoes fanfic of Tyrion, trying to avoid more bloodshed than absolutely necessary or whatever but he hates Cersei ffs. I guess he kinda forgot about that? Like, it even negates him putting his personal grievances aside in service of da realm. Nah, Tyrion just wants what's best for his family! And that right after she sent Bronn to murder both him and Jaime. Ugh.

Speaking of Ser Fuckboi. So let me get this straight...they've invested hours upon hours of screen time into Jaime's redemption arc and his relationship with Brienne for him to hit and quit and run back to Cersei like none of it ever happened in 2 episodes? WTF, just WTF. Oh and he never cared about innocents? What was he doing at Winterfell then, just rode all the way there to bang Brienne? Heh, at least this vindicates Ned in believing he only killed Aerys out of self-preservation and not to prevent the burning of KL.

People keep saying the Lannisters are D&D's favorites but i call BS. They obviously loove Cersei but they completely ruined her brothers' characters to the point where they're unrecognizable. I'm just going to call them Tyrone and James now.

Jon was there.

Dany. Oh Dany. I admit, i like her character a lot. But precisely because she's clearly on a tragic path in the books, so i had no dreams of Good Queen Daenerys and Wise King Jon ruling side by side but seriously? They had to frame her going all Fire and Blood on KL in the worst and most black and white way, huh? I guess nuance and complex conflicts are for 8th graders. She just commits the most despicable atrocity in the entire show, for no reason other than shock value. Gotta make it as horrible and out of the blue as can be, to make people go 'bruh whaaaat?' Fuck. You.

I'm rooting for Dany to do as much damage as possible before she goes down.

[Rockroi]

1 hour ago, Tywin et al. said:

You do realize the point of that Tweet was to show that in every season, there were signs that this was inside of her. It was not to document every incident of hers, and there are several more. People have been speculating for years whether or not she would turn into a Mad Queen. The trail is there even if the execution was done poorly.

My point is that the evidence in that tweet is not evidence that "this" was inside her.  It was evident that she did horrible things in a horrible world.  She was faced with terrible decisions and at times made very brutal decisions.  Which is why I provided the following:

1. Complementary Evidence: I gave many examples where Dany took actions that were forgiving, just, simple and, at times, enlightened.  

2. Similar Behavior: I gave examples where other leaders acted in a manner similar to Dany and how that is not evidence of insanity.  In other words, Dany displays relatively normal behavior.

I recognize that the tweet is not an exhaustive list, but the list is trying to put forth the best arguments in limited space.  My response is "These examples don't show insanity."  They show harshness; they show violence. But insanity is something I sort of want evidence for.  And in this universe not all violence is insane. 

So while I agree that they executed the turn "poorly" I think its more than just execution; I think they never laid the proper foundation and that left the scene seeming untethered to the underlying story.  And from my POV, knowing where they are in the story, it also reeks of desperation.  

[Corvinus85]

Dany even locked up her children because Drogon roasted one human child. Just one child!

And there's that clip in season 3, when Jorah tells her that to take the Seven Kingdoms she needs to get bloody, and her reply is basically yes, but not with the blood of innocents.

[Samsaptakas]

In future of westeros, Euron greyjoy is going to be remembered as a legend, the one who fought the mad queen and died fighting for the woman he loved and his child. He is the dragonslayer. Mad queen dared not even come close to the city, as long as he was alive. Only after the mighty warrior fell, that the mad queen was able to enter the city and wreck havoc.

[hewman]

You think the Prince of Dorne has elephants?

[darksellsword]

8 minutes ago, Corvinus said:

Dany even locked up her children because Drogon roasted one human child. Just one child!

And there's that clip in season 3, when Jorah tells her that to take the Seven Kingdoms she needs to get bloody, and her reply is basically yes, but not with the blood of innocents.

You hit the nail on the head with that one

[Low Sparrow]

This episode was actually not horrible to watch. But, that's probably because after last week's debacle, I found and read all the spoilers. They were right on the mark, hence the stupid plot "twists" were not annoying and I could just watch the episode for what it was worth .... cool special effects.

I think Arya was supposed to kill Cersei, but we know D&D love her, so they rob us of watching her die. They let Arya kill the night king instead of John, robbing John of what I"m sure was his role/purpose after being reborn.

What was good was finally seeing a dragon do, what a dragon is supposed to to, though I think they kind of overdid with how easily it sliced through stone. So, on their way North, when Dany brought all the Dothraki, all the Unsullied and all three dragon;s to King's Landing ... why not just take the damn city then? I know the answer to that lies in my prior paragraph.

If one dragon can take the city in less than an hour, three should be able to do it in about 20 minutes

What was bad about the episode was, pretty much everything else :-)

 

[darksellsword]

Speaking about the long night and the demise of the Dothraki, Benioff and Weiss said: "What they see is just the end of the Dothraki, essentially. "  How can people defend this show, everything the characters do and the very little they say is to serve D&Ds stupid plot gimmicks.

I would love to see the pep talk Dany gave the Dothraki after the battle at winterfell, you lost half your people in existence, no plunder , absolutely no benefit to coming to Westeros but you can go south now and attack another city.

[Rockroi]

The best argument for Dany's insanity is that she can become extremely single-minded.  At the House of the Undying she refused to wait for Jorah and ran into an open trap; she did not listen to Marr Dir Durr's warnings that "healing" Drogo would not give her what she wanted; she refused to listen to those who warned her about easy answers for the slave cities.  

But maybe the easiest example of Dany's insanity that gets glossed over is when she LITERALLY walked into fire believing that the fire she created would birth her three dragons. THAT'S. CRAZY.  Its almost (almost) irrelevant that she ended up being 100% right,  The fact that she waded into the fire is just as crazy as Brightflame swallowing wildfire.  It's not seen as crazy because it worked.  

However, these do not add up to insanity.  For starters, in each of these events, Dany was acting in the furtherance of others - Drogo, her dragons, the slaves, and in the last case, the remnants of her khaldasar.  In no case did her actions endanger innocent people (save herself), and in fact, had she taken any other action, it could have lead to the death of innocent people.

IN the situation of her walking into the fire and with Drago, we also have to factor in desperation; in these situations, Dany had few if any viable options and she had to act fast.

The factors in the Melting of King's Landing is entirely different; Dany was the most powerful person in Westeros at that exact moment; she was not in any danger; her people were in relative safety if not an outright advantage.  Dany is certainly not desperate.  Further, Dany has WON at the exact moment her heel turn takes place.  And finally, Dany is killing innocent people -- the very group she has spent her entire adult life protecting.  The showrunners (who seem bored even having to TALK about the show at this point) justify it by saying "At that moment Dany was so badly written we decided, 'Fuck it; she can barely act anyway, lets not even shoot Emilia and just have the CGI people just put in a bunch of fire.  Easy Peasy.'  Also, we had another conference call with the people at Disney for the Star Wars movies so we mailed all that in.  made it personal." 

What?  What is "personal" about killing innocent people? 

What is the most galling is that the foundation has not been laid to get us to this point.  And the reason for that is because Dany's best scenes are the ones written when the books were still in play.  After that happened, Dany splintered in the show and they tried to keep her true to what they had (from the books) and make her react properly to the dangers of the world she was in.  At no point did the show build up the insane angle.  Never did they tale even small steps to present that.

The next argument could be "Well, what do you want? Insanity can happen at any time!"  And that would be fine if this were a documentary about insanity or a universe (ie: Wheel of Time) where insanity can just strike outright.  That is not the world we were placed in; insanity does not strike like lightning.  It is, instead, a slow-moving monster OR has been present the whole time.  And in this case, if that is the situation you have, you MUST give us one or the other.  Either its slowly coming on (ie: the way it did with Aerys) or that character has been nutzoid the whole time (Viserys).  None of this was done to this point. 

This was a poorly done turn not merely because the execution was poorly done; but because the transition was poorly done if doen at all.  

[Corvinus85]

18 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

The best argument for Dany's insanity is that she can become extremely single-minded.  At the House of the Undying she refused to wait for Jorah and ran into an open trap; she did not listen to Marr Dir Durr's warnings that "healing" Drogo would not give her what she wanted; she refused to listen to those who warned her about easy answers for the slave cities.  

But maybe the easiest example of Dany's insanity that gets glossed over is when she LITERALLY walked into fire believing that the fire she created would birth her three dragons. THAT'S. CRAZY.  Its almost (almost) irrelevant that she ended up being 100% right,  The fact that she waded into the fire is just as crazy as Brightflame swallowing wildfire.  It's not seen as crazy because it worked.  

However, these do not add up to insanity.  For starters, in each of these events, Dany was acting in the furtherance of others - Drogo, her dragons, the slaves, and in the last case, the remnants of her khaldasar.  In no case did her actions endanger innocent people (save herself), and in fact, had she taken any other action, it could have lead to the death of innocent people.

IN the situation of her walking into the fire and with Drago, we also have to factor in desperation; in these situations, Dany had few if any viable options and she had to act fast.

Hell, even her walking into the fire was given a reason in season 2. When she negotiates with the Spice Prince or whatever his name is, she says she had a prophetic dream about it. Here's the clip, and btw, other than the minor annoying grammar correction, the rest of this dialogue is fantastic. Those were the days.

But alas, we only have 1 episode left, to even attempt a reasoning for her behavior.

 

[Vanadis]

19 minutes ago, Rockroi said:

But maybe the easiest example of Dany's insanity that gets glossed over is when she LITERALLY walked into fire believing that the fire she created would birth her three dragons. THAT'S. CRAZY. 

It was crazy in the same way the first people flying an airplane were crazy. It must have looked dangerous and impossible for people who didn't believe it could be done, until it worked. Within the universe Dany is part of, magic is a real thing, and even if few people knew how it worked, it wasn't unheard of. So in that sense, she wasn't crazy, just true to her inner nature. It seemed insane to the people watching, and in a sense it was, but at the same time it wasn't.

In other words, I wouldn't take it as a sign of mental instability.