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Rant & Rave without Repercussion: Burn It All Edition

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1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

I'm guessing that is mostly hyperbole, although there  have definitely been people who weren't on board with the burning of MMD.  I was a Dany fan and wanted her to retake the IT until the Meereen series of fiascos.  I have always wondered how or why the author made her fail so spectacularly if she was one of the heroes, but now I know the answer: she's not.  She failed spectacularly and showed bad judgment because she's going to ultimately succumb to her character flaws, as Kit said, very Shakespearean, a noble person brought low by their fatal flaws.

I don't think the show means to frame her as having been 'mad' from the beginning, they use the Targ coin toss as shorthand because they're lazy writers. 

Interestingly, Dany wasn't even one of my faves in both book and show, before this season. But I feel the need to defend her because, from my perspective, this was horrible writing and not anything resembling consistency, as you say.

I actually agree with your 1st paragraph, except I don't think she's not a hero - or won't be, but can I ask, if I may: do you think Jon is not a hero too? Didn't he fail as well? I think we can also say he succumbed to his character flaws which got him killed. This is actually something I like about the two, they're both tragic. 

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3 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

Interestingly, Dany wasn't even one of my faves in both book and show, before this season. But I feel the need to defend her because, from my perspective, this was horrible writing and not anything resembling consistency, as you say.

I actually agree with your 1st paragraph, except I don't think she's not a hero - or won't be, but can I ask, if I may: do you think Jon is not a hero too? Didn't he fail as well? I think we can also say he succumbed to his character flaws which got him killed. This is actually something I like about the two, they're both tragic. 

He did fail, he failed with the NW to sell his vision, which is critical for a leader, and he paid with his life.  The show has made him copiously fail since then, so much so, that I am pretty sure he will not sit the IT because he's been portrayed as too dumb for it, more honorable and naive than even Ned Stark. 

I'm not sure he will fail at everything in the books, but that could be my bias at work since I much prefer his character to Dany's. I would feel pretty confident that he or he and Dany will be keys to defeating the Others, not Wolverine  Arya, who is BTW my favorite character, but didn't deserve that kill.  If he refuses the IT next week, he will do so also in the books.  Me, personally, I find Jon is a better leader and more pragmatic than Dany, but getting yourself killed isn't a sign of success:)

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Posted (edited)

If I had never seen an episode of this show, I would have been blown away by its awesomeness watching this episode. As pure television it had great acting, scale, visual effects, and balance...but, of course I have seen the show before and was therefore left with a far less shiny impression, thanks to several poor choices.

1. Tyrion has become a useless moron. He knows Dany is unstable (we could see it on his face when he spoke to Varys about her) yet he rats out the only person actually trying to do something about it. Additionally, while his freeing of Jamie was a touching sibling moment, he's got to know that plan won't work. I mean we all know Cersei is beyond hope, so he's just helping more Lannisters against his Queen's wishes.

2. Dany and Drogon destroying the Iron Fleet and the battlements of KL was pretty great to watch. But how was it all so easy for her? If an angry Dany and her one dragon can destroy an entire navy, most of an army, and a whole city with ease, why hasn't she just been romping through every battle as easily? She doesn't even need an army of her own now it seems.

3. Why did Arya travel thousands of mile to KL with the intention of killing Cersei only to turn around at the last instant because the Hound told her she would probably die? Seems like this was done purely because after we saw her kill the NK we expected her to do more badass killing, so the writers led her down that road even though they knew they couldn't have Arya kill everyone important from here on out.

4. Jamie's entire waste of a character arc. I've said much about this elsewhere, so I'll leave it at that.

5. Clegane Bowl has been coming for a while now. But to me this felt hollow. It wasn't really a great fight scene. More chaotic than anything. Which was disappointing for a battle between two of the most feared fighters in Westeros. But the reason it didn't do anything for me ultimately is because it didn't have any stakes attached to its outcome. By that point we knew both men would probably die in the destruction of KL, and they weren't defending or attempting to kill anyone else, so who cares? I mean, good job getting revenge on your brother Sandor I guess, but he was an undead zombie and you died too, so yeah.

6. The Golden Company was an unnecessary entity. They did absolutely nothing. Why even bother putting them in the show?

7. Euron was a terrible character every time he appeared in this show. The fact that he randomly met and fought Jamie preventing him from reaching Cersei in time to escape (potentially) with her was some bad TV bullshit. 

I've realized that nearly every episode of this season has made me feel a lot of emotions. Excitement to find out what happens, sadness that the show is ending, awe at most of the technical aspects of the show (as well as the fantastic acting), but ultimately disappointment at the many terrible choices the writers have made. Oh well, maybe the rest of the books will be finished one day ;)

 

Edited by Joey Crows

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1 minute ago, Lady Anna said:

Interestingly, Dany wasn't even one of my faves in both book and show, before this season. But I feel the need to defend her because, from my perspective, this was horrible writing and not anything resembling consistency, as you say.

I actually agree with your 1st paragraph, except I don't think she's not a hero - or won't be, but can I ask, if I may: do you think Jon is not a hero too? Didn't he fail as well? I think we can also say he succumbed to his character flaws which got him killed. This is actually something I like about the two, they're both tragic. 

My view is that GRRM has a dark view of human nature that doesn't lend itself to heroes. He's written Dany to have what I'd call an anti-redemption arc whereby she starts off a genuinely good person but has character flaws which mean circumstances gradually turn her darker and darker. Honestly, I think it's brilliantly done (by GRRM) but it's a rare character-type in literature and TV/movie lore, hence show-writers like D&D can't reproduce it well.

Jon, I think is meant to be a more conventional literary type - the tragic hero. He's a good man at the start, never gets corrupted and has a sad end, partly due to certain personality weaknesses but mainly due to fate or bad luck. Again, he's not been written particularly well by D&D, and in addition I think Kit is a weak actor which exacerbates the weak effect of who Jon is.

The nearest we get to a real hero who's still standing at the end is Ser Brienne. I hope GRRM doesn't spoil her arc by having her story conclude by shagging and bawling - she deserves better.

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3 hours ago, Ice Queen said:

Er, no, with the possible exception of Arya, because she's a warg. Daenerys is not a warg and the rest of them don't really believe they're any of those things. 

Arya isn't a warg in the show though. 

3 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

Both TV and book fans have always been too caught up in rooting for her, and I am glad to find out that GRRM is ending her story as a cautionary tale about the quest for power, if he ever finishes writing it, that will be a truly tragic story.

However, the show should and must have known that such an abrupt turn would outrage huge portions of their audience, so for that reason alone, they should have done a better job of foreshadowing at least her potential to break bad.

They were too interested in shocking their audience, instead of delivering a coherent and intelligent narrative on warfare.

2 hours ago, Zorral said:

A bridled white horse, no less, though without saddle, just there waiting for Arya.  Why? How? Was that the Golden Company's leader's horse?  White horse, no saddle but a bridle, with lots of blood stains on its white coat, yet still unharmed.  Is that a symbol of Plot Armored Arya, who has committed a multitude of bloody acts, but yet remains essentially innocent, thanks to the Hound?  What?

I'm sure Harry Strickland's horse was killed but we did see a Dothraki rider quite prominently with a white horse, and they don't have saddles, I believe.

2 hours ago, Chris is my name said:

I think what is more likely to happen in the books:

I suspect that show!Jon's arc since season 7 is more or less the role of fAegon in the books. I think he will be accepted, more or less, as the more acceptable and rightful Targaryen ruler and will probably displace Tommen/Cersei. I think when Dany finally arrives she will find, what she sees as her birthright, already taken by an imposter and will burn the city out of jealousy and rage.

I think the book and show Jon arcs are going to begin to realign in the final episode as well.

I agree the there's been an amalgamation of Aegon's role in Jon and in Cersei staying so long on the throne in the show.  I've always wondered if Jon will actually remain a hidden Targaryen, fighting the Others and probably dying there, his ice and fire heritage being good for that purpose only - that will be the subversion of the hidden prince trope for him.

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Cleganbowl is an example of why fanservice is usually a bad idea. 

If the Hound's redemption story is really about not having changed or grown, except he's got a soft spot for the pint size bad ass, then he hasn't been redeemed, so his story leads back to square one.  That would be disappointing, not impossible in this bittersweet tragic tale. But there is also the issue that the Mountain is a zombie, so killing 'it' isn't going to be as gratifying as killing your brother, so then  the whole thing becomes a let down and is nothing ,more than another sword fight, which we've seen a gazillion of them.  

So it was underwhelming and they should  have know it would be and done something else.  GRRM 'might' go there, but I doubt it, I would guess the Hound will die sacrificing himself for something worthwhile, not dying to kill his dead brother.

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1 minute ago, Joey Crows said:

 

2. Dany and Drogon destroying the Iron Fleet and the battlements of KL was pretty great to watch. But how was it all so easy for her? If an angry Dany and her one dragon can destroy an entire navy, most of an army, and a whole city with ease, why hasn't she just been romping through every battle as easily? She doesn't even need an army of her own now it seems.

 

Well, look how easily she destroyed the Lannister army before with one dragon. One of these things is like having a 1,000 bomber fleet at your command. And I think it's believable that she took out the fleet because she was able to attack them at a moment of her choosing and was using evasive tactics. Once she was able to take out that initial line of ships, the rest of the guys were probably in a panic, which would affect their accuracy. 

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12 hours ago, Danelle said:

The rocks are the little brothers of Casterly Rock. Prophecy fullfilled.

I ran out of reactions for today, but had to tell you that this had me bursting out laughing!

12 hours ago, Danelle said:

Perhaps our girl is pregnant. You know part of the whole bittersweet ending.

Brienne is pregnant and Tyrion marries her to maintain Lannister honor!

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8 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

He did fail, he failed with the NW to sell his vision, which is critical for a leader, and he paid with his life.  The show has made him copiously fail since then, so much so, that I am pretty sure he will not sit the IT because he's been portrayed as too dumb for it, more honorable and naive than even Ned Stark. 

I'm not sure he will fail at everything in the books, but that could be my bias at work since I much prefer his character to Dany's. I would feel pretty confident that he or he and Dany will be keys to defeating the Others, not Wolverine  Arya, who is BTW my favorite character, but didn't deserve that kill.  If he refuses the IT next week, he will do so also in the books.  Me, personally, I find Jon is a better leader and more pragmatic than Dany, but getting yourself killed isn't a sign of success:)

I agree.

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I'm glad I snapped a few episodes back. It takes the sting out.

I don't know what everyone's bitching about with Dany's supposedly too-sudden descent into madness. Her hair was messed up and she looked haggard early in the episode so ipso facto she was crazy. It's like you people aren't even watching sometimes.

Turns out Varys the Spider, Master of Whisperers, schemer and survivor extraordinaire, is pretty lax about discussing treasonous treasons in the open where anyone can hear. In his defense, Tyrion is short so he's easily overlooked.

Tyrion produces a key to release Jaime. Is there only one key in Westeros? Or at least among Team Dracarys? I'm all for efficiency in prisoner management programs, but this goes too far.

Jamie, upon realizing he's about be shut out on the wrong side of the gate: "Soldier!" After waving his golden hand around, as if that's the only thing anyone remembers about Jamie Effing Lannister, Golden Lion Kingslayer, literally the Queen's twin, in King's Landing.

The Golden Company. Did we just change our mind about what to do with these guys or what? I get that there wasn't time to do anything here, but why open this can of worms in the first place?

Euron is THE BEST. Just washes up on the beach, no questions or complaints, ready to be a dick wherever and however necessary. I mean, I certainly have a bunch of questions about why that scene calls for an immediate battle to the death, but then I'm not Euron Greyjoy, soldier and/or sailor of fortune and professional asshole.

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7 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

My view is that GRRM has a dark view of human nature that doesn't lend itself to heroes. He's written Dany to have what I'd call an anti-redemption arc whereby she starts off a genuinely good person but has character flaws which mean circumstances gradually turn her darker and darker. Honestly, I think it's brilliantly done (by GRRM) but it's a rare character-type in literature and TV/movie lore, hence show-writers like D&D can't reproduce it well.

I do think she will get darker in the books - no question. Where we may disagree is that I think she will bounce back, remaining a grey character with ultimately heroic goals (when the Others come in). I do trust George.

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2 minutes ago, Chris is my name said:

Right, how does that go? "There must always be a steak in Winterfell" :P

With a splash of lemon seasoning ;)

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6 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

The nearest we get to a real hero who's still standing at the end is Ser Brienne. I hope GRRM doesn't spoil her arc by having her story conclude by shagging and bawling - she deserves better.

Ya, but while we have madness, hell and catastrophe at KL, Brienne is crying her eyes out at Winterfell, while Sansa gives her hugs, lemon cakes, and moon tea, and comforts her by saying, "You're a young and beautiful woman.  There will be someone else.  At least yours wasn't as bad as mine.  Mine tortured and fed people to the dogs, yours just does incest and throwing little boys out of windows."  Sansa tactfully refrains from mentioning that Brienne's bf is also always getting captured by his enemies -- though of course she doesn't know of his latest capture at KL trying to get back to his not-Isolde so they may die in an aria of fear, regret and unending passion.

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3 minutes ago, David Selig said:

Nope, I want it too. Branbot and Sandra need to die. 

Your list is so short! I’d add, Arya, Sam, Davos, Jon, TYRION ASAP, Grey Worm, and? Anyone who’s still alive and I forgot. They’re all dumb, stupid, useless characters. 

And where was Gendry btw? Last we saw him was when he proposed to Arya? Was there no follow up on him whatsoever? 

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2 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

I do think she will get darker in the books - no question. Where we may disagree is that I think she will bounce back, remaining a grey character with ultimately heroic goals (when the Others come in). I do trust George.

This. That was always my take on Dany... she'll edge really close to becoming a nasty Targ type, but she’ll bounce back. Because ultimately she is a good person, she has empathy, and she has suffered so much, I don’t think she’ll want to inflict suffering on others, especially helpless innocents. 

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