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Rant & Rave without Repercussion: Burn It All Edition

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3 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

It was crazy in the same way the first people flying an airplane were crazy. It must have looked dangerous and impossible for people who didn't believe it could be done, until it worked. Within the universe Dany is part of, magic is a real thing, and even if few people knew how it worked, it wasn't unheard of. So in that sense, she wasn't crazy, just true to her inner nature. It seemed insane to the people watching, and in a sense it was, but at the same time it wasn't.

In other words, I wouldn't take it as a sign of mental instability. 

That's one place where I think the books and the show will differ.

The reader and Daenerys will know that she is not insane and the things she is concerned about are real, no less real than Bran's green dreams. We know that Quaithe visits Daenerys. We know that her visions in the Dothraki Sea have more to do with magic than they have to do with mental illness.

As a matter of fact, for all we know, we can't even be sure of what exactly happened at Summerhall. Why would Brightflame drink wildfire? Was he really crazy, was it a part of some spell or was there something else going on?

That's why we have the story told to us from different POVs. Daenerys POV will say one thing and the reader will know that it's true (Dany is magical believe it or not) but the other characters - POV or otherwise - will think she is batsh*t or something dangerous that needs to be destroyed.

Didn't Jojen tell Bran to keep his skinchanging and greendreaming powers secret? Why?

Because they will hate and fear him and think him mad. Some will try to kill him.

Like look at the Mormont women. Maege Mormont is involved with something; she's not literally have sex with bears and popping out fully human children.

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1 hour ago, Samsaptakas said:

In future of westeros, Euron greyjoy is going to be remembered as a legend, the one who fought the mad queen and died fighting for the woman he loved and his child. He is the dragonslayer. Mad queen dared not even come close to the city, as long as he was alive. Only after the mighty warrior fell, that the mad queen was able to enter the city and wreck havoc.

And WHO is going to remember this, exactly?

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2 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

That's one place where I think the books and the show will differ.

The reader and Daenerys will know that she is not insane and the things she is concerned about are real, no less real than Bran's green dreams. 

Where the books and show differ, crucially, is that the book chapters give us the characters' points of view. The TV show loses that. It means that of course in Dany's chapters she will justify herself and won't see herself as insane. But then we'll get the POVs of other main characters who will think she's gone over to the dark side. The books make us do the thinking - who do we agree with? The TV takes that away or gives us insufficient material to work with.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Where the books and show differ, crucially, is that the book chapters give us the characters' points of view. The TV show loses that. It means that of course in Dany's chapters she will justify herself and won't see herself as insane. But then we'll get the POVs of other main characters who will think she's gone over to the dark side. The books make us do the thinking - who do we agree with? The TV takes that away or gives us insufficient material to work with.

That can be easily rectified with a good script

Breaking Bad had an episode devoted to a freaking fly on the wall. And the whole episode turned out to be about Walter White's mental health.

A Quiet Place is a movie where none of the main characters are able to talk or make any real sounds for most of the movie.

Birdbox has characters blindfolding themselves in order to prevent themselves from going insane and attacking each other.

The Sixth Sense is yet another movie where we have to (SPOILER WARNING even though this movie is 20+ years old!!!!) wait until the end of the film to find out that the main character is not even alive

Yet, here we are. With these two idiotic hacks

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Where the books and show differ, crucially, is that the book chapters give us the characters' points of view. The TV show loses that. It means that of course in Dany's chapters she will justify herself and won't see herself as insane. But then we'll get the POVs of other main characters who will think she's gone over to the dark side. The books make us do the thinking - who do we agree with? The TV takes that away or gives us insufficient material to work with.

I don't think she is really 'insane' and it's too bad that it's being presented this way, she chose violence, like Cersei before her and Tywin before her and on and on into the past where might makes right.  She wanted to be greated as a liberator and have the people rise up to support her like they did in Yunkai and Meereen, but they didn't.  At this point in her journey, she takes a dark turn and decides that their failure to support her makes them guilty of aiding tyranny...this is what her speech about mercy to future generations is supposed to be getting at..and so, she says fuck it, you want fear, you got it, and torches the city.

One of the show's problems is that they've wanted to to have it all ways with Dany, they basked in the glow of her as a feminist icon, and her as a badass warrior queen, better than the men around her, and then they want to claim this was always foreshadowed, and yet again, they failed to really foreshadow it because they want a twist.  So, what we got was a mess of execution that would or will undoubtedly be a beautiful tragic failure in Martin's books.

Edited by Cas Stark

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5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't think she is really 'insane' and it's too bad that it's being presented this way, she chose violence, like Cersei before her and Tywin before her and on and on into the past where might makes right.  She wanted to be greated as a liberator and have the people rise up to support her like they did in Yunkai and Meereen, but they didn't.  At this point in her journey, she takes a dark turn and decides that their failure to support her makes them guilty of aiding tyranny...this is what her speech about mercy to future generations is supposed to be getting at..and so, she says fuck it, you want fear, you got it, and torches the city.

One of the show's problems is that they've wanted to to have it all ways with Dany, they basked in the glow of her as a feminist icon, and her as a badass warrior queen, better than the men around her, and then they want to claim this was always foreshadowed, and yet again, they failed to really foreshadow it because they want a twist.  So, what we got was a mess of execution that would or will undoubtedly be a beautiful tragic failure in Martin's books.

Have you listened to her speeches in the last 2 eps? Even varys tells that what she is saying doesn t make sense...

That speech about mercy that she uses to justify doing whatever is necessary to end all tyrants for the future generations… I think they are just showing that we are suposed to think she is crazy… Unfortunately they didn t the same when she talked about breaking the wheel… 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Cas Stark said:

I don't think she is really 'insane' and it's too bad that it's being presented this way, she chose violence, like Cersei before her and Tywin before her and on and on into the past where might makes right.  She wanted to be greated as a liberator and have the people rise up to support her like they did in Yunkai and Meereen, but they didn't.  At this point in her journey, she takes a dark turn and decides that their failure to support her makes them guilty of aiding tyranny...this is what her speech about mercy to future generations is supposed to be getting at..and so, she says fuck it, you want fear, you got it, and torches the city.

One of the show's problems is that they've wanted to to have it all ways with Dany, they basked in the glow of her as a feminist icon, and her as a badass warrior queen, better than the men around her, and then they want to claim this was always foreshadowed, and yet again, they failed to really foreshadow it because they want a twist.  So, what we got was a mess of execution that would or will undoubtedly be a beautiful tragic failure in Martin's books.

The thing is, they could have tweaks a few things and made it work much better.  Don't have Rhaegal die in that stupid way in E4, have Rhaegal die in E5 during the siege on KL, maybe even have the Lannister troops (and some KL smallfolk) cheer at Rhaegal death, have this set Dany off in a fit of rage that she unleashes Drogon full fury on KL. 

Now you solved a bunch of problems, Rhaegal death is not so anticlimactic, you don't have memes about Ballista Stinger Missiles that work in one eposide and completely useless in another, you still have a dragon death, you show the emotional side of Dany and how attached she is to her dragons (she considers them her children), and you provide a plausible scenario under which she would unleash her fury on the entire city.

That's all a good writer needed to do, just a little bit of thought and you can get to the same place without being completely idiotic. That's why I can't buy the D&D ran out of the books to adopt and that's why the show sucks argument, because just even a modicum of effort given to the storytelling aspect could have resulted in a coherent story with the same bullet points.

No, without GRRM there would have been a drop in quality, but it didn't need to drop that far, it could have still been a show that was great in the early seasons and just good in the later ones, the fact that the latter seasons are a complete dumpster fire, that's on D&D.

Edited by The Scabbard Of the Morning

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1 minute ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

The thing is, the could have tweaks a few things and made it work much better.  Don't have Rhaegal die in that stupid way in E4, have Rhaegal die in E5 during the siege on KL, maybe even have the Lannister troops (and some KL smallfolk) cheer at Rhaegal death, have this set Dany off in a fit of rage that she unleashes Drogon full fury on KL. 

Now you solved 3 problems, Rhaegal death is not so anticlimactic, you don't have meme about Ballista Stinger Missiles that work in one eposide and completely useless in another, you still have a dragon death, you show the emotional side of Dany and how attached she is to her dragons (she considers them her children), and you provide a plausible scenario under which she would unleash her fury on the entire city.

That's all a good writer needed to do, just a little bit of thought and you can get to the same place without being completely idiotic. That's why I can't buy the D&D ran out of the books to adopt and that's why the show sucks argument, because just even a modicum of effort given to the storytelling aspect could have resulted in a coherent story with the same bullet points.

No, without GRRM there would have been a drop in quality, but it didn't need to drop that far, it could have still been a show that was great in the early seasons and just good in the later ones, the fact that the latter seasons are a complete dumpster fire, that's on D&D.

They could also have Jon riding on Rhaegal so not only does Dany see her losing another child but also apparently her lover. Furthermore, have it after the bells start ringing by a defiant Cersei so it seems a violation of their surrender. 

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2 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

The thing is, the could have tweaks a few things and made it work much better.  Don't have Rhaegal die in that stupid way in E4, have Rhaegal die in E5 during the siege on KL, maybe even have the Lannister troops (and some KL smallfolk) cheer at Rhaegal death, have this set Dany off in a fit of rage that she unleashes Drogon full fury on KL. 

Now you solved 3 problems, Rhaegal death is not so anticlimactic, you don't have meme about Ballista Stinger Missiles that work in one eposide and completely useless in another, you still have a dragon death, you show the emotional side of Dany and how attached she is to her dragons (she considers them her children), and you provide a plausible scenario under which she would unleash her fury on the entire city.

That's all a good writer needed to do, just a little bit of thought and you can get to the same place without being completely idiotic. That's why I can't buy the D&D ran out of the books to adopt and that's why the show sucks argument, because just even a modicum of effort given to the storytelling aspect could have resulted in a coherent story with the same bullet points.

No, without GRRM there would have been a drop in quality, but it didn't need to drop that far, it could have still been a show that was great in the early seasons and just good in the later ones, the fact that the latter seasons are a complete dumpster fire, that's on D&D.

I agree.  I think both Rhaegal and Missy should have died early in the battle.  That eliminates the stupidity of Cersei not killing them all during the meeting, as you say, if the KL citizens cheered for either of those things...Missy or Rhaegal...that can enrage her.  Another half day on the scripts could have smoothed things out a lot.

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3 minutes ago, Minsc said:

They could also have Jon riding on Rhaegal so not only does Dany see her losing another child but also apparently her lover. Furthermore, have it after the bells start ringing by a defiant Cersei so it seems a violation of their surrender. 

Exactly, have KL ring the bells to celebrate killing a dragon, then the bells setting Dany off would be so much easier to understand.   This is not hard stuff.

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4 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I agree.  I think both Rhaegal and Missy should have died early in the battle.  That eliminates the stupidity of Cersei not killing them all during the meeting, as you say, if the KL citizens cheered for either of those things...Missy or Rhaegal...that can enrage her.  Another half day on the scripts could have smoothed things out a lot.

Honestly, another thirty seconds on the scripts would have helped.  Or handing them off to an editor worth even the tiniest shred of a turd would have helped.  I've seen so many fans coming up with better story ideas that it's ridiculous these multi-millionaires (made on this show) couldn't come up with SOMETHING satisfying.

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This is very revealing as to how George worked with D&D pre season 4 . It seems as though they threw weird unexplainable curve balls at him like Jeyne Westerling being from Volantis and George had to put out fires like changing her name to Talisa so it would at least not stick out like a sore thumb. I always felt that Jeyne Westerling being the daughter of Tywin Lannisters bannerman made Robbs oath breaking more potent in that Walter Frey was betrayed twice over. Robb didn't honor his pledge to marry his Daughter and he married one of their enemies. I believe the real reason D&D made that change is they were jerking themselves off at the prestige of having Oona Chaplin the descendant of  Charlie Chaplin and Eugene O'Neil in their cast, because of her exotic looks they couldn't have her being a Westerosi. George clearly didn't approve of that change, if you notice he says the idecision to have Robb being a POV character on the show was the right one but says nothing good about the Jeyne to Talisa character swap.

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Posted (edited)

Talisa was easily the worst part of Season 2.  I think part of the reason GRRM stopped was because they were ignoring his input.  Sure he stopped to "focus on the books", but if he really enjoyed the experience he would have found a way to keep doing it. He stopped because he didn't enjoy it AND he had an easy out in "focusing on the writing TWOW". 

Edited by The Scabbard Of the Morning

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4 minutes ago, The Scabbard Of the Morning said:

Talisa was easily the worst part of Season 2.  I think part of the reason GRRM stopped was because they were ignoring his input.  Sure he stopped to "focus on the books", but if he really enjoyed the experience he would have found a way to keep doing it. He stopped because he didn't enjoy it AND he had an easy out in "focusing on the writing TWOW". 

It is so sad that these guys were so arrogant they were ignoring any suggestions or advice from George on their scripts.

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Have you guys seen this?

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