Jarl Halstein Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 10 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said: But to burn a whole city packed with people when there was absolutely zero military need for it? And they were careful to set that up, the zero military need. They'd told us over and over: when you hear the bells tolling, that means the city is surrendering. So yeah, let's hear those bells tolling. Let's see the Lannister commander throw down his sword at Jon's feet. Let's make good and damned sure you now that burning the city has nothing at all to do with winning the battle, it's just a little sugar on top from your favorite queen. It's probably as someone said, that King's Landing will be burned by the dragons in the novels, but it will be after a much longer story. There, GRRM will no doubt add better reasons. Here they had much shorter time to do it. But they could still have done it a lot better. For example, Rhaegal could have been killed right before the attack on King's Landing, so Dany would still be crazy with rage. They had to built it up with that intro where they point out to the viewers how the Targaryens are crazy. As shown by Dany's brother and her father, the Mad King. This could have been built up to in a much better way and with better reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 8 hours ago, darmody said: Not nothing. She likes to burn things, and she has deliberately killed innocents before. Not on this scale, but just sayin. She never killed anybody for no reason. Now she starts off with a million. For no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 8 hours ago, draft0 said: The last few seasons of the show have been obviously rushed and basically reduced every character to a couple of bullet points, including Dany, so I agree with you about that. But go back and read the last chapter of A Dance with Dragons; it's clear she is turning down a dark path. People were writing essays about this back in 2013. Something she said to herself when she was running a high fever and couldn't eat is a pretty slim reed to pin your argument on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 8 hours ago, PetyrPunkinhead said: Like when she burned the Tarly's alive for show? :/ The Tarlys were rebels who refused to bend the knee. That's an automatic death penalty. Burning is how her family does death penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightwish Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 10 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said: What a cheap, juvenile Fiction-Writing 101 trick that was to pull at the end of an epic story. Nothing in this story set that up. Yeah, Daenerys doled out harsh punishment--from our perspective--a handful of times. But she always did it for a reason--a good reason, in fact. Every time. But to burn a whole city packed with people when there was absolutely zero military need for it? And they were careful to set that up, the zero military need. They'd told us over and over: when you hear the bells tolling, that means the city is surrendering. So yeah, let's hear those bells tolling. Let's see the Lannister commander throw down his sword at Jon's feet. Let's make good and damned sure you now that burning the city has nothing at all to do with winning the battle, it's just a little sugar on top from your favorite queen. It's a complete betrayal of one of my favorite, most complex, driven yet sympathetic characters in all of literature, A complete betrayal. You know, Martin left the story in a position where it was a long, long way from "Mad Queen Daenerys" but he didn't make it impossible to get there. Yet these guys never made a move in that direction. Ghey'd give your occasional reminder she could be severe and harsh but it was always for a good reason, with everything she sad and did pointing at her good intentions by the people she intended to rule, and not only that but the smartest characters in the story continually told us she would be a great queen. I so hope the books get finished. If it finishes this same way, it can still be just as satisfying so long as the ending is set up and makes sense. This made none - it was a cheap writer's trick, the "late crazy," even more worn out than the old all-the-monsters-die-when-the-chief-monster-goes they treated us to a couple of weeks ago. What a crap, crap season. Those guys should be run out of town on a rail--but instead, they'll make vast riches and get to name their price, cast and script for their next abortion. As a Dany fan, I have to say the show ruined my interest in the books as well. Apparently one way or another you come to this conclusion: Dany's character, use and development is limited and used for the war against Others. Like all her army and dragons were supposedly needed to defend humanity against the Others, but then lets demise her with "madness gene" which she carries. So instead of rewarding a character that tries to be there, tries to save humanity, you actually punish him just because you want to create another bullet point with the kings who were destroyed by their desire for power. Like this hasn't happened already with so many characters in the books coming before Dany. Her story and arc is nothing new to the story. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 5 hours ago, Kajjo said: There was su much foreshadowing to the Queen of Ashes. I you haven't realised that, it's your fault, not GRRM's or DD's. Get a grip. This was always a possibility and it never was unlikely. I bet on this years ago. It was discussed over and over. Daenerys to be Queen made more or less so sense at all. Stop moaning just because you don't like the storyline. It's GRRM's story and the turn of events is certainly his. Hogwash, she never once punished someone harshly with no reason. NEVER ONCE. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 3 hours ago, Nudu said: Is this why there are pages of theories about this in the forum for like years? Yeah, and I've never once seen anybody point to any factual basis for it. Oh, but sharp punishment of the wine-seller's daughters! Oh but the 163 crucified! The Tarlys! All of those were perfectly reasonable punishment in that milieu, and done for good reasons. Nothing whatsoever even slightly hinting of madness. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Green Knight said: <snip> seriously, anyone who thinks this is not a GRRM outcome just hasn’t read the books and was expecting a Disney ending as someone already pointed out. <snip> I've read the books seven times and watched the series 5 times. Dany never hurts anyone for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Ferrum Aeternum said: It's been clearly foreshadowed in the books and the show for years, but good luck getting through to Team Dany with that logic. <snip> Tell me what foreshadowed her killing massive numbers of people with no reason but "to be feared." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Bird of the North Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 I've resigned myself to the fact that mad Daenerys is happening in the books; I just hope GRRM gives me a solid thematic foundation on which this development is built upon. I want the message to be clear and I want the shift to feel more natural and less rushed. I just don't understand some of the specific developments he's made with her character if this is truly how he plans for her to end. I'm just...really confused, and a bit frightened as to how this story arc is going to be handled in the medium which has actually, so far, flourished on good writing, consistent character arcs and logical turns of events. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bradam Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 45 minutes ago, Jarl Halstein said: It's probably as someone said, that King's Landing will be burned by the dragons in the novels, but it will be after a much longer story. There, GRRM will no doubt add better reasons. Here they had much shorter time to do it. But they could still have done it a lot better. For example, Rhaegal could have been killed right before the attack on King's Landing, so Dany would still be crazy with rage. They had to built it up with that intro where they point out to the viewers how the Targaryens are crazy. As shown by Dany's brother and her father, the Mad King. This could have been built up to in a much better way and with better reasons. Better would been first cut that whole cheesy Euron shooting Rhaegal 3 times from a moving ship 10 miles away and killing him the air. Both dragons engage in the Kings Landing battle. When the bells ring, everyone stops fighting, Drogon and Rhaegal roost on the remains of the city wall, and.. BAM Rhaegal takes a scorpion bolt to the head from the one lone scorpion Dany missed and he dies. Then have Dany goes apeshit and burns the city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bear42 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Mad Queen Dany has been a predictable outcome to this story for a long time, and has the potential to be a great ending to the book series. But what we got from the show was garbage. This was not crossing a fine line from greatness to madness, it was a huge reversal in the character they've built for seven seasons. The "foreshadowing" from the previous seasons does not amount to the actions we saw on screen. Her descent into madness happened at break neck speed, and it didn't have to. We could've seen it happen little by little. Some when Viserion dies, some when Jorah dies, some when Rhaegal dies, some when Jon threatens her claim, some when Missandei dies, and on and on. That should've started a season ago at least. For over seven seasons Dany has been a champion of the smallfolk whose only signs of "madness" have been lashing out against their oppressors or military targets. Then out of nowhere she is torching innocent civilians after their military has surrendered and her enemy is defeated. At least Aerys II was losing when he wanted to burn it all down. They very clearly emphasized the fact that the battle was already won when Dany fired up the grill. There is no subtlety in this show anymore. D&D tell us Dany is bad now, so she goes thermonuclear and commits the worst atrocity we've seen on the show. Within the span of one episode she becomes the most evil character we've seen. Because the bells set her off? Okay? Nothing more maddening than the sound of victory I guess. She could've gone to the Red Keep and melted Cercei straight through her human shield and people could reasonably accuse her of being mad, and it would've made way more sense as a viewer. Instead she largely ignores the Red Keep and focuses most of her wrath on the regular people flooding the streets after they've already surrendered. She gave the Tarlys a choice, the masters of Mereen got an eye for an eye, Varys betrayed her, but the people of King's Landing were helpless. The Mad King was actually mad, like insane, Dany was just having a bad week. The Mad King was paranoid with suspicion and saw enemies in every shadow, Dany has been correct in all of her suspicions. If they were trying to establish a parallel between the two of them they should've read the books or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 No it was just way too out of line. Her burning down the red keep after they surrendered and killing the civilians inside in order to kill cersei would be one thing. It would have even made sense and showed how she lost it to a degree because she put revenge ahead of the people which she always claimed to protect. Instead they had her killing civilians on purpose for no other reason then to be shocking. Ten to one we are gonna see sansa give jon a "I'm sorry but I told you so" thing and he will fall to his knees and say oh great sansa you were right I am so stupid. No sansa you added to the pressure to a large degree and knew that your actions would get alot of people killed. Maybe not have kings landing burned to the ground but there would be a war. And I really don't get why jon suddenly didn't like her. Jon-I love you She kisses him and he pulls away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 41 minutes ago, Little Bird of the North said: I've resigned myself to the fact that mad Daenerys is happening in the books; I just hope GRRM gives me a solid thematic foundation on which this development is built upon. I want the message to be clear and I want the shift to feel more natural and less rushed. I just don't understand some of the specific developments he's made with her character if this is truly how he plans for her to end. I'm just...really confused, and a bit frightened as to how this story arc is going to be handled in the medium which has actually, so far, flourished on good writing, consistent character arcs and logical turns one events. Not like this she won't. What will likely happen is what should have happened in the show where she does something like attack the red keep and killing cersei and accepting that killing some of the civilians is acceptable for that when she didn't have to do it. That is what they could have done in the show and it would have worked. They made her worse then her father since at the time aerys had completly lost and just wanted to take as many people with him as he could. Instead they have her win the battle then burn the whole city down and purposly kill civilians. It makes no sense for her character. And that she goes after the red keep LAST. GRRM may have her do some bad things and may have her die but it won't be something as horrific as this. It just defies logic and common sense. GRRM has done things that are shocking but he didn't do them purely for shock value. The red wedding made sense. And despite how horrific ramsey is we don't actually "see" him do most of those things. We hear theon think back on it but it doesn't have a scene where it shows him doing horriifc things...well somewhat but it usually stops before it gets insane. So we knew he did it but didn't "see" it. The only reason to have her do something this bad is because they wanted to shock the audience. Again GRRM does shocking things but never does anything JUST for shock value. And even if they had spread her doing horrific things out more it STILL wouldn't make sense. She wanted the iron throne and KL and she just destroyed them for no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nightwish Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 2 minutes ago, snow is the man said: The only reason to have her do something this bad is because they wanted to shock the audience. Again GRRM does shocking things but never does anything JUST for shock value. And even if they had spread her doing horrific things out more it STILL wouldn't make sense. She wanted the iron throne and KL and she just destroyed them for no reason. I think that's because they want to get rid of her as a character, that's why they condemn her so hard in burning the whole city, so she can't be excused. They are putting a tomb stone over her character. If she had only burn the Red Keep her actions could been debatable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Hodor's Dragon said: Hogwash, she never once punished someone harshly with no reason. NEVER ONCE. Exactly. The masters were killed for justice and while it was harsh it was "an eye for an eye". Mormont betrayed her and she sent him away. She was going to kill that guy she married but was talked out of it. However she was gonna kill him because his people were killing hers and she wanted to know who did it. Maybe not the best solution but it is an understandable one. The tarly's were given every chance to be allowed to live. They could have bent the knee or taken the black but they refused and she made an example. Again harsh but it is understandable. She has never been cruel just because she wanted to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snow is the man Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Just now, Nightwish said: I think that's because they want to get rid of her as a character, that's why they condemn her so hard in burning the whole city, so she can't be excused. They are putting a tomb stone over her character. If she had only burn the Red Keep her actions could been debatable. And it made no sense and went completly against character. And just the way they have written this season's events is ridiculous. They had them kill the WW in episode 3. I could understand it and it did make sense to do it like that. But then have dany take the city and destroy it becoming a villain just before the last episode is horrific. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferrum Aeternum Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 1 hour ago, Hodor's Dragon said: Tell me what foreshadowed her killing massive numbers of people with no reason but "to be feared." Someone needs to edit a supercut of every time Dany has screamed at someone about "taking what is hers" or threatened violence if she doesn't get her way. Dozens of examples over 8 seasons. Remember all that "when my dragons are grown" bluster from Season 2? Was she just joking? I swear some of y'all talk about her like she's Mother Teresa. She isn't and never has been. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hodor's Dragon Posted May 13, 2019 Author Share Posted May 13, 2019 Just now, Ferrum Aeternum said: Someone needs to edit a supercut of every time Dany has screamed at someone about "taking what is hers" or threatened violence if she doesn't get her way. Dozens of examples over 8 seasons. Remember all that "when my dragons are grown" bluster from Season 2? Was she just joking? I swear some of y'all talk about her like she's Mother Teresa. She isn't and never has been. That's talk. Yes, it has been clearly shown that Daenerys uses threats to prevail in confrontations, often successfully. But where's the part about her harming people for no reason but "to be feared?" I'll tell you where that part is in the story prior to last night: nowhere, that's where. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eltharion21 Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 9 hours ago, TeethGrinder said: Dany fans realising how we felt in season 5. Seriously though it was awful. Should have made the season 10 episodes and showed more development. The descent into paranoia could have been done across the last two seasons. Instead we got happily ever after like romance and a sudden break with reality. Horrible. Exactly. I was kinda doing "Jesus Lebowski" dance while the burninating lasted (small "Told you so" victory), but in the end whole of it will ring hollow, they had chance to make great show and failed spectacularly on all fronts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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