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Hodor's Dragon

Protagonist suddenly goes crazy in last chapter of epic

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3 minutes ago, nyser1 said:

 

(1) Falling in love with somebody you don't like is insanity. Mmmmkay! He raped her repeatedly.

You don't get to tell other people who to fall in love with. She had no options, so she took control of the relationship and turned it into something that worked for her. That's admirable, not crazy.

(2) Her crazy brother who was about to take her down with him, and by the way she was a slave among barbarians, how was she to not consent? Speculation.

What do you mean speculation. He was toast. What was she supposed to do, kick Drogo's ass in the middle of his khal gathering?

(3) Are you shitting me? She walked into a funeral pyre because a dream told her to, it worked, she wasn't injured, she came out with baby dragons. This is what I call destiny in a fantasy novel, not insanity. This one sums up your post. I imagine you would do the same after a dream?

I'm not the protagonist in an epic fantasy novel. Whatever the reason for what she did, not only did it work, it's the entire key to her story; it was crazy for Frodo to go into Mt. Doom, too. And by the way, she was walking into her husband's pyre; many have done that throughout history without being labeled insane.

(4) After everything Mirri Maz Dur did, including blood/death magic, lying to her, tricking her, "saving" Khal Drogo, you think it's insanity to execute her? Mmmmkay! Burning someone alive is not considered normal human behavior.

You're really going hot and heavy on this "everything that isn't normative 21st-century behavior is insanity" thing, aren't you? By medieval Earth standards, you do something like that to a leader, you're lucky as hell to get out with a mere being burned to death.

(5) Deposing the maters in Astopor, getting the unsullied for free, freeing the slaves: that was insanity, too, I see. Mmmmkay! Your argument is that the ends justify the means. It is a place called slaver's bay. She broke an agreement and slaughtered people in response. I imagine you have proof that these people are guilty of laws? Each and all?

This is silly. I have nothing but laughter for this. What she did was amazing and heroic, not crazy.

(6) Crucifying 163 masters. A little harsh, yes, but there are NUMEROUS good reasons for that. I'm not going to go into it in detail, but it was imminently justifiable. I hope you are not in a position to make such decisions.

Everybody makes life and death decisions. They aren't always easy. You don't have to agree with Dany's decision re the 163 masters, but it wasn't even in the same county as crazy. She accomplished or eased several goals with that act. [Another "everything that isn't normative 21st-century behavior is insanity" thing]

(7) Why was it crazy to jump on Drogon in the fighting pit? Drogon dies otherwise. You're saying she should've let Drogon die so she could say and be a happy wife of the dude trying to poison her? Running in the middle of a fight to hop onto a fire breathing and flying wild animal. Seems legit.

Yeah, it was a lot more courageous than most people would go for. But please enlighten me as to her good alternatives.

 

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39 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Everything in the books is from a POV. Generally speaking, Martin's POV narration is fairly reliable, and in fact occasionally slips into omniscience. Dany's POV is one that definitely appears overtly reliable--you always have to take POV narration with at least a small grain of salt, but she is constantly questioning herself. That's not the sign of an unreliable narrator.

The fact that she is constantly questioning herself should be all the evidence you need that some of the things she does may seem questionable and possibly terrible to those around her. I will not say that it is 100% proof she is currently mad but saying there is absolutely no evidence that she could turn mad is just not true. I do not think she is mad rn now in the books, but it doesn't mean she won't become mad just because she is currently constantly questioning herself. Sure while she is still mentally sound she will question terrible things she does, but she still does terrible things regardless and there is no reason to say she "won't" go that route after all is said and done. Aerys after all didn't show signs of madness til his later years after many traumatic events happened in his life.

And yes many terrible things Dany does do have reasons, but that doesn't make them any less terrible. The whole point is to be better than those who you are punishing and if she continues to make the choice of answering "injustice with justice" in the form of harsh and cruel punishments she won't get anywhere and will be pushed beyond what we and her could possibly imagine when facing other dangerous villains and possibly people we care about once she comes to Westeros. It's all about perspective. "I am the rightful ruler of the seven kingdoms." said by a girl who hasn't been to the Seven Kingdoms since she was born. Who's family was deposed because her father burnt people alive and was a tyrant. Said by a girl who instead of executing her enemies through the sword like most normal people does so through dragon fire for no reason other than fear. Fear vs Love. Why does she "deserve" the throne? How is it her right? All she is doing with this "goal" of taking the throne is bringing more swords and fire and continuing to fan the flames already engulfing Westeros. If she gave a shit about not killing innocents she would of stayed in Slaver's bay to rule what she had and those she had freed. Thinking that attacking the Capital city of Westeros would not end with SOME innocents dying is just ridiculous and people who think this way are romanticizing war instead of seeing the ugly truth. 

The fact that anyone is "shocked" that bringing dothraki (people who raid, enslave, and pillage in Esso) and a dragon (who's main attack is fire which spreads) to KL will just end with "bells and Cersei stepping out to meet her maker" boggles my mind. In the show it was ridiculous and not properly set up that she would make the choice she made, but i'm not shocked by what transpired with her armies after she made that choice and I will not be shocked if she turns heel like this in the books once she comes to face characters we are invested in as opposed to slavers and savages.

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Just now, Adam_Up_Bxtch said:

The fact that she is constantly questioning herself should be all the evidence you need that some of the things she does may seem questionable and possibly terrible to those around her. <snip>

Please. Self-awareness is the key to sanity. Just check out this google search:  

https://www.google.com/search?rlz=1C1GCEU_enUS822US822&ei=yvbZXOL_A8mC_wTvva34Cg&q=self-awareness&oq=self-awareness&gs_l=psy-ab.3..35i39j0i67j0l4j0i67j0l3.87090.87090..87800...0.0..0.103.103.0j1......0....1..gws-wiz.......0i71.XV0SnqSekWk

 

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

 

Like I stated in the part of the paragraph you left out, she is doing questionable things WHILE she is sane, that does not mean she will stay sane. Aerys is all the proof you need that her "saving slaves" and "currently questioning the things she is doing" does not mean she will stay that way. Trauma changes people in good ways and bad, and the more trauma that mounts the harder it will be on her mentally. She's already capable of doing questionable things, all she needs is more hits to her mind for her to turn those questionable things onto people that do not deserve it.

I'll eat my words gladly if this turns out to be untrue in the books but part of me is sure Dany's heel turn here was the 3rd twist that GRRM gave D&D, they just handled it horribly.

Edited by Adam_Up_Bxtch

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Posted (edited)

With regards to Dany's fall, it's not so much the fact that she falls and becomes Darth Dany that is the problem (both the books an the show have laid the groundwork for such a story line), but the extremely rushed nature of it in the show. Both in the books and the show Dany always had a brutally ruthless streak and was rather dogmatic in her thinking, chafing at having to compromise on her beliefs as the Slaver's Bay story line shows. Even so, Dany goes from a savior queen to a genocidal mad woman in the space of two episodes and this sudden switch (both Dany's paranoia and the sudden lack of confidence in her from her advisors) was poorly build up in the show. I consider it likely that Dany's fall in the books will be less a matter of a sudden mental break as shown in yesterday's episode, but rather growing ever more ruthless in achieving her original noble desire to improve the lives of the weak and downtrodden, with her rationalizing her actions with the motive that it's for the good of all inhabitants of Essos and Westeros (even admitting Dany's right to be their queen), until finally seizing the Iron Throne becomes the sole object of her will, and an end, the End, in itself.

Edited by Warlock of Quarth

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In the same way as the ww can be seen as an allegory climate change, I think of Dany's behaviour as an Allegory for western foreign policy.

Democratic, justice loving, emancipated states using Shock and Awe tactics, where children die, even after a war is clearly won (with massive superior firepower) seems unbelievably evil. But there you are.

 

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I honestly have no fucks left to rant about this series anymore, so I'll just post this video which summarize my feelings on this matter.

 

 

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I'm convinced that some of the many, many things we don't understand about 805 will be cleared up in 806.

I don't imagine it will be all of them, and I don't even know whether it will be those that any given person thinks are the most important.

But I do think some of them will be revealed. After all, it's their last shot.

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Posted (edited)
10 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

For show-watchers alone, Ned's beheading and the Red Wedding ought to have been hints enough that ASOIAF/GoT is a massive exercise in misdirection and is not suitable for people who lack any semblance of critical faculties.

Oh stop being obnoxious. This has nothing to do with foreshadowing but with execution. Dany going mad - fine. But it should have been done in a believable way. Foreshadowing an event doesn't give the writer some sort of permission to serve it up however and whenever they want.

And you're comparing this episode to the Red Wedding and Ned's beheading? Both of those were unexpected, but at the same time Walter Frey and Joffrey had been given sufficient motivation in the story to carry these out. Hence they kept immersion which allowed them to be the bitter emotional blows they were.

Edited by White Walker King

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2 hours ago, nyser1 said:

 

Is Tyrion also crazypants because he murdered his father and lover in a jealous rage? How about Arya making Frey pie? Sansa with the dogs? Theon for killing two farmer boys to take Winterfell? Brutality and murder and vengeance were commonplace in Westeros and Essos, so let’s not judge Daenerys by our modern standards. If Arya were in Dany’s shoes, she would have crucified those masters in the same way. And who gives a rat’s ass that she burned the Tarlys? They told her they would remain her enemy. Ned Stark’s execution method was to use his sword. Her dragon is her sword. 

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14 hours ago, Nightwish said:

 

As a Dany fan, I have to say the show ruined my interest in the books as well. Apparently one way or another you come to this conclusion: 

Dany's character, use and development is limited and used for the war against Others. Like all her army and dragons were supposedly needed to defend humanity against the Others, but then lets demise her with "madness gene" which she carries.

So instead of rewarding a character that tries to be there, tries to save humanity, you actually punish him just because you want to create another bullet point with the kings who were destroyed by their desire for power. 

Like this hasn't happened already with so many characters in the books coming before Dany. Her story and arc is nothing new to the story. 

 

 

This this a Disney fairy tale. In reality French and Russian revolutions that freed people came along with the terror. Millions of innocent people died.  Some revolution heroes died horribly, and they got no rewards. Remember Leon Trotzky? Sometimes dragons killers turn into dragons. There were many terrorists among those "heroes" who thought about small folk. In Martin's books did the last hero get any reward? Nobody remembers his name.

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2 minutes ago, Roza Ahai said:

This this a Disney fairy tale. In reality French and Russian revolutions that freed people came along with the terror. Millions of innocent people died.  Some revolution heroes died horribly, and they got no rewards. Remember Leon Trotzky? Sometimes dragons killers turn into dragons. There were many terrorists among those "heroes" who thought about small folk. In Martin's books did the last hero get any reward? Nobody remembers his name.

Damn good points made, there.

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7 hours ago, Nightwish said:

Sorry but do you realize that all these show a very special fantasy character and not a mad person. You can’t compare a Valyrian descendant whose ancestors rode Dragons and had conquered all Westeros with a normal person. Unless you can hatch dragons. 

Aeries burned the Starks alive and was viewed as Mad King. He was threatening to burn KL and was killed for that .Westerosi were horrified by the death of the Starks. Starks death was one of a reasons the North joined Robert's rebellion. However, Dany burning people is OK. Her threats to take KL by Blood and Fire is OK, too. Dany burned more people than Aeries. Dany could decide to send Tarlies to the Wall per Tyrion advice. If she thinks she is rightful Queen, its her decision as a judge is the final. Tarlies would obey, they wouldn't burn themselves.  She is merciless as Mad Aeries.

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I will say that I don’t think it was uncommon for a city that resisted to be brutally sacked, and KL had resisted, they may have thrown down their weapons in the end but they fought back and killed hostages, Tywin would probably have reacted in the same way

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Roza Ahai said:

This this a Disney fairy tale. In reality French and Russian revolutions that freed people came along with the terror. Millions of innocent people died.  Some revolution heroes died horribly, and they got no rewards. Remember Leon Trotzky? Sometimes dragons killers turn into dragons. There were many terrorists among those "heroes" who thought about small folk. In Martin's books did the last hero get any reward? Nobody remembers his name.

Well since this isn't a Disney Fairytale you have no problem with Dany getting the throne. If you wanted reality stick with the history books because everybody here should be dead. 

John ressurected? Dany came out of the flames alive? Arya survived because of faceless men? The Starks got the winterfell? Giants and the night king? 

Bran survives falling from a tower and becomes a raven? Jamie is not dead despite they cut his hand with no medical care? The Frey’s are dead because Arya changes faces?  

Reality doesn’t work when it’s convenient. 

Edited by Nightwish

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Roza Ahai said:

Aeries burned the Starks alive and was viewed as Mad King. He was threatening to burn KL and was killed for that .Westerosi were horrified by the death of the Starks. Starks death was one of a reasons the North joined Robert's rebellion. However, Dany burning people is OK. Her threats to take KL by Blood and Fire is OK, too. Dany burned more people than Aeries. Dany could decide to send Tarlies to the Wall per Tyrion advice. If she thinks she is rightful Queen, its her decision as a judge is the final. Tarlies would obey, they wouldn't burn themselves.  She is merciless as Mad Aeries.

According to your previous comment, this is reality, don’t wait for any closure or justice served because this would be Disney. You have answered yourself already with your previous quote: 

 

5 hours ago, Roza Ahai said:

This this a Disney fairy tale. In reality French and Russian revolutions that freed people came along with the terror. Millions of innocent people died.  Some revolution heroes died horribly, and they got no rewards. Remember Leon Trotzky? Sometimes dragons killers turn into dragons. There were many terrorists among those "heroes" who thought about small folk. In Martin's books did the last hero get any reward? Nobody remembers his name.

 

Edited by Nightwish

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Could it be that Bran warged into Drogon and burned King's Landing because "three-eyed raven told so"? Did they show Dany burning all those innocent people? No. Maybe she fell off the dragon when the bells started to ring. 

I mean they must surprise us because that's what they are doing. Doesn't matter if it's absurd or not.

 

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Posted (edited)

At this point I truly believe the show will end in a different manner than the books. Nothing on the show makes any sense. No mention of the valonqar and instead we get tacky fan services like cleganebowl and silly scenes of the twins Cersei and Jaime dying in each others arms. The show has never understood Daenerys' character, what they did with Mereen is a clear example of that. Even some directors said they don't understand the character. Now I don't doubt that GRRM's Dany might seem crazy in the eyes of the Westerosi, that much I actually believe in. The entire point of Dany's Mereen arc was to point out the differences between Essos and Westeros. The former is a much, much crueler and barbaric place. In Essosi eyes (slavemasters) Westerosi behaviour (Barristan Selmy) is perceived weakness, whereas in Westerosi eyes Essosi behaviour is considered mad. Now Dany has no choice but to be a dragon aka become violent in order to manage with the slavemasters, sellswords and the dohtraki. But her dilemma is that in order for her to do that she will be perceived mad by the Westerosi. I don't think for a second that GRRM is planning Dany to go mad like on the show but the subtleties do point out that she will be perceived as one.

 

Also, even during last season I thought FAeagon was too big a character to cut. Dany was OP without FAegon to fight against and they had to come up with all sorts of silly plotlines to make it seem like she has a hard time. That choice also threw Varys under the bus. This season they've pasted elements ftom the FAegon plot threads on Cersei and Jon - and now I believe - also on Dany. The show has always awkwardly bent it's characters to suit certain plot points. They needed a sacked King's Landing but without a possible dance of dragons they were forced to have Dany do it.

Edited by MakeThemBurn

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