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Hodor's Dragon

Protagonist suddenly goes crazy in last chapter of epic

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In the books it is properly built up for a long time that she will be a Mad Queen in the end. In the show they decided to whitewash her character in earlier seasons & then let her turn evil in the end for no good reason & without proper build up. All for the sake of "shocking twist" & "subverting expectation". 

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19 minutes ago, Jon Snow is a loser said:

In the books it is properly built up for a long time that she will be a Mad Queen in the end. In the show they decided to whitewash her character in earlier seasons & then let her turn evil in the end for no good reason & without proper build up. All for the sake of "shocking twist" & "subverting expectation". 

Not at all. Every time she is harsh in the books she has a very good reason--and there aren't that many times. She actually comes closer to acting harshly for no reason in the show. Just not nearly close enough to justify anything like this. This was a million miles beyond anything she had done or anything that had been foreshadowed.

It's just bad writing for the main character to suddenly lash out at the end of the story. The person whose character arc has mainly been "free the slaves?" Suddenly wiping out the lowborn en masse? 

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44 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

What a cheap, juvenile Fiction-Writing 101 trick that was to pull at the end of an epic story.

It's not good writing. 

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I had a look at Twitter, people aren't exactly happy with this episode. So it's not just this forum. Which is good to know.

 

 

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I don't know exactly how much time passed since her arrival in Westeros so I cant judge how fast her descent was, but I think a mixture of paranoia, feeling alone, death of loved ones, losing her grip on what she felt was her purpose and birth right.. death of 2 of her children... is plenty to drive even the purist of people evil.

I agree that it was a pretty rapid decline however so much of the above did happen in 2 episodes, so if all these things can and needed to happen in 2 hours then I can certainly believe she could lose it in the same space of time.... the question is how long was 2 hours in our time in show time ?

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There was always the fear that Dany would go the way of so many of her family did, toward madness, that is.  But her final descent was not portrayed in a reasonable way, just as Jaime's character arc was not, just as so much of this story was not. 

I found myself wondering at the exchange between Dany and Jon in this episode.  He pulled back from her . . . why?  And she visibly chilled and said something about, okay, FEAR, then!  I mean, WHAT?  Did she slip him the tongue and it hit a sore tooth or what the hell happened? 

Just so many things felt WRONG, I don't know where to start.  But it's been that way for a long time, so I'm not too surprised, really.

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7 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I don't know exactly how much time passed since her arrival in Westeros so I cant judge how fast her descent was, but I think a mixture of paranoia, feeling alone, death of loved ones, losing her grip on what she felt was her purpose and birth right.. death of 2 of her children... is plenty to drive even the purist of people evil.

I agree that it was a pretty rapid decline however so much of the above did happen in 2 episodes, so if all these things can and needed to happen in 2 hours then I can certainly believe she could lose it in the same space of time.... the question is how long was 2 hours in our time in show time ?

That so very much stuff happened to one person in two episodes is one of the least believable parts of it. This was a person portrayed through 7.5 seasons as being someone for whom things always worked out, including by magical means when necessary.

The least believable thing was that this person who seemed to effortlessly emit messianic attraction in Essos--including from the few Westerosi she met--was not even welcomed politely or given a portion of the due from her acts in Westeros. Really? That made no sense at all. People just don't act like that toward whoever is the flavor of the day. They give them their due and a little more besides.

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Posted (edited)

I don't like to speculate on the books anymore, since I think that they will remain unfinished, and there are a lot of characters that the show has omitted. However I'm pretty sure that Mad Daenerys is GRRM's final twist, I don't think the show made this up.   Personally I don't like the Dany as villain storyline, and I am pretty disappointed. But I do think that if he finishes the books, Daenerys' descent will be explained and executed better in the books than on the show,  I have always believed in the bittersweet ending, this conclusion is too bitter for me. Normally I have no problem reading tragic and nihilistic stories, but for ASOIAF I did expect a different kind of ending, 

Hats off to all the people who had the theory that Daenerys would go mad, you had a better understanding of where this story was going than I did all along.  I did not expect it at all, and thought the Mad Queen Dany theory was bullshit until I read the leaks.

Edited by MarieAntoinette

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Just now, Hodor's Dragon said:

That so very much stuff happened to one person in two episodes is one of the least believable parts of it. This was a person portrayed through 7.5 seasons as being someone for whom things always worked out, including by magical means when necessary.

The least believable thing was that this person who seemed to effortlessly emit messianic attraction in Essos--including from the few Westerosi she met--was not even welcomed politely or given a portion of the due from her acts in Westeros. Really? That made no sense at all. People just don't act like that toward whoever is the flavor of the day. They give them their due and a little more besides.

That's life someone can go through their whole life not knowing much pain and lose everything in a week... it's random.. and can and would turn someone quite easily if the said person doesn't have the support they need around them which was clear that she could trust nobody once Jorah/Missy had gone.

She made it clear to Tyrion he was only as good as his next decision, Jon pulled away from her and so she chose fear. The North didn't trust her despite her help and her closest advisors had been plotting/sharing information that they knew could unsettle her followers.

Her family name didn't have the same reputation in Essos as it did in Westeros... No matter how much good she did, there would always be doubt in the back of peoples minds if she is anything like her father etc... she realised this and knew she could never rule with love and it had to be fear.

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This is not GRRM's Dany and it sure wasn't GRRM's Tyrion either and we could say that about a lot of the characters. D&D have definitely taken the foundations of GRRM's books and carved it into their world with their own characters and desires.

One of the cheapest episodes I've ever witnessed regardless of everything she's been through Dany knows her father and that's not the route she wanted to follow. This should not have been the outcome of her journey.

Rage doesn't always necessarily mean action, a lot of people say things out of anger yet it doesn't mean they will act up on it. The war was going to plan the fact she suddenly went Mad Queen is to give D&D motive for the possibility of her death as if she had won the war in a much cleaner way there would be no reason for her to die and it would require some actual writing from them.

Furthermore her not hearing the bells and burning KL would also requite writing and thought and some sort of organisation to this episode.

It just seems unnecessary, so I emphasise that it goes against her beliefs and everything she's pretty much done until now. This was not how the conclusion to her journey was meant to be and some argue that the signs were there, it still doesn't imo explain this episode. We can keep going around in circles but her making threats and her losing loved ones doesn't mean that she's unintelligent. She knows the people's support is paramount to her success and that she will not survive as Queen with fear alone. Yet what did she say to Jon? Let it be fear. She also knows that she can't just be Queen with her army and serving the people and being the change they needed was also part of the motivation to get on the IT as well as taking revenge for what happened to her family. Yet what did she do? Burned everything down. 

Where GRRM left her character in the book imo was a long way away from here imo, you couldn't rule out the possibility of her reaching this stage but one could argue she was on the route for greatness and would have proven many people wrong, even if there were mistakes on the way it would not have been this extreme. I'm really not convinced that GRRM's dreams for Dany was this, and if another book does arrive then this will all need to make sense.

There was no need for that hysteria and if it was going to lead to that then we needed a lot more build up and emphasis on her character and how her decline was beginning to show signs through detailed conversations and maybe some extreme actions. This is simply not what I expected to see.

This is going all over the place, I will get ready let the episode soak in and then come back to discuss further.

On a final point not only is this a cheap way for the series to prepare for its final episode but is also lazy and the lack of writing and quality is something that will not be forgotten.

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1 hour ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Nothing in this story set that up.

A lot of us have been pointing out that the writers have been clearly pointing towards this outcome for a long time. Not entirely their fault if several fans are so blinded by Dany-love that they refuse to follow the actual storyline. I agree that the writing has been mediocre, but the signs were still clearly there.

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Tyrion has become such a trainwreck of a character. He hasn't been the same since season 4.

49 minutes ago, MarieAntoinette said:

I don't like to speculate on the books anymore, since I think that they will remain unfinished, and there are a lot of characters that the show has omitted. However I'm pretty sure that Mad Daenerys is GRRM's final twist, I don't think the show made this up.   Personally I don't like the Dany as villain storyline, and I am pretty disappointed. But I do think that if he finishes the books, Daenerys' descent will be explained and executed better in the books than on the show,  I have always believed in the bittersweet ending, this conclusion is too bitter for me. Normally I have no problem reading tragic and nihilistic stories, but for ASOIAF I did expect a different kind of ending, 

Hats off to all the people who had the theory that Daenerys would go mad, you had a better understanding of where this story was going than I did all along.  I did not expect it at all, and thought the Mad Queen Dany theory was bullshit until I read the leaks.

The twist is supposed to happen in the last episode not this one.

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Anyone notice the "previously on" segment had a MUCH better build-up for her breakdown than we got on the show itself? Her face pissed about Miss Sandy with various narration about Targartens and madness from past seasons. 

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5 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Tyrion has become such a trainwreck of a character. He hasn't been the same since season 4.

The funny thing is, every single plan of his goes wrong. EVERY SINGLE ONE. As he laid out his plans to Jamie, I said with full confidence to the wife, "Yup, that's not gonna happen!"

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2 hours ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

What a cheap, juvenile Fiction-Writing 101 trick that was to pull at the end of an epic story.

Nothing in this story set that up. Yeah, Daenerys doled out harsh punishment--from our perspective--a handful of times. But she always did it for a reason--a good reason, in fact. Every time.

But to burn a whole city packed with people when there was absolutely zero military need for it? And they were careful to set that up, the zero military need. They'd told us over and over: when you hear the bells tolling, that means the city is surrendering. So yeah, let's hear those bells tolling. Let's see the Lannister commander throw down his sword at Jon's feet. Let's make good and damned sure you now that burning the city has nothing at all to do with winning the battle, it's just a little sugar on top from your favorite queen.

It's a complete betrayal of one of my favorite, most complex, driven yet sympathetic characters in all of literature, A complete betrayal.

You know, Martin left the story in a position where it was a long, long way from "Mad Queen Daenerys" but he didn't make it impossible to get there. Yet these guys never made a move in that direction. Ghey'd give your occasional reminder she could be severe and harsh but it was always for a good reason, with everything she sad and did pointing at her good intentions by the people she intended to rule, and not only that but the smartest characters in the story continually told us she would be a great queen.

I so hope the books get finished. If it finishes this same way, it can still be just as satisfying so long as the ending is set up and makes sense. This made none - it was a cheap writer's trick, the "late crazy," even more worn out than the old all-the-monsters-die-when-the-chief-monster-goes they treated us to a couple of weeks ago. 

What a crap, crap season. Those guys should be run out of town on a rail--but instead, they'll make vast riches and get to name their price, cast and script for their next abortion.

Not nothing. She likes to burn things, and she has deliberately killed innocents before. Not on this scale, but just sayin. 

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Dany fans realising how we felt in season 5.

:D

Seriously though it was awful. Should have made the season 10 episodes and showed more development. The descent into paranoia could have been done across the last two seasons. Instead we got happily ever after like romance and a sudden break with reality. Horrible.

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1 minute ago, darmody said:

Anyone notice the "previously on" segment had a MUCH better build-up for her breakdown than we got on the show itself? Her face pissed about Miss Sandy with various narration about Targartens and madness from past seasons. 

Exactly. I've been arguing to myself here that the writers have made her regression very clear for a long time, but many Danyfans are utterly oblivious to plot development and bring  Disney-like simplicity to her character.

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29 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Where GRRM left her character in the book imo was a long way away from here imo, you couldn't rule out the possibility of her reaching this stage but one could argue she was on the route for greatness and would have proven many people wrong, even if there were mistakes on the way it would not have been this extreme. I'm really not convinced that GRRM's dreams for Dany was this, and if another book does arrive then this will all need to make sense.

The last few seasons of the show have been obviously rushed and basically reduced every character to a couple of bullet points, including Dany, so I agree with you about that. But go back and read the last chapter of A Dance with Dragons; it's clear she is turning down a dark path. People were writing essays about this back in 2013.

Quote

No. You are the blood of the dragon. The whispering was growing fainter, as if Ser Jorah were falling farther behind. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

Fire and Blood,” Daenerys told the swaying grass. (DANY X)

 

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