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Quillon

Daenerys has always been a killer

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Posted (edited)

All these seasons I thought Emilia Clarke was a bad actor, watching all those scenes where she burned her enemies and stared into the abyss without a hint of emotion while doing it. It made me dislike both her acting and the character. Now we know(from "inside the episode"), apparently she was instructed to act this way. Then again in some of those scenes she also showed pride. And we all thought...or most of us thought that there weren't any problem because she was killing slavers and savage dothraki khals to free slaves in the former case and gain the biggest khalasar in the latter(and also free them?). But the most important thing here is that she is a "killer", either enjoys killing like The Hound or more likely just doesn't have a problem with killing, which maybe worse(?), I'm not an expert. She is a character that has black and white morality; she can only care about people on her side: her friends, the innocent: slaves, all the "smallfolk" etc and she is utterly merciless when it comes to her enemies, she chooses killing even if there is a room for mercy, she has to be restrained/heavily counseled to show mercy. She is a killer, like we see a lot in movies & TV where a "killer" tells the supposedly good guy, that he/she hasn't in them to pull the trigger that he/she isn't a killer, but Dany is and by some margin too comfortable; she doesn't care when a room full of people burns to death around her. But all these things that you may agree or disagree don't make her "mad", she's flawed deeply in a certain way, like anybody could be in their ways. 

Also she lacks empathy to some extend; it is always about her for her :P and her unhealthy fixation on IT. f.i. she doesn't care why Jon needs to tell at least his family about what he really is, what he's been through growing up as a bastard etc. she never even asks. Ofc. the way Jon went about it was dumb and we have writers to blame for that but it doesn't change the fact that she doesn't care, she only cares about what is rightfully hers.

So about her burning a city full of people, whether innocent or enemy; I think that she's being a killer is loosely related here. There are many reasons shown for her to be pushed towards the edge; loosing the ones closest to her, suspecting(rightfully so) that her "loyal" advisers & supposed allies' scheming behind her, her realization that people of Westeros don't know or love her, like she's been used to etc. All of these stand against her purpose that is to get to her rightful place in the world(and break that wheel to be replaced by her own wheel which will be good for everyone in Westeros and everyone will live happily ever after, surely :D). She's frustrated, grieving, doubtful and some other adjectives also, so she snaps where she snapped. And the fact that she is a killer, comfortable with burning people by the score didn't hinder her on her massacre.

I guess now she's set on a path that is irreversible, she'll try to rule through fear...and fire & blood. I'm still not sure she's "mad", she is mad to level an entire city, yeah but is she truly mad? or did she become mad now that she done this?

Edited by Quillon
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Honestly I had issues with Emilia's acting as well until this season. It is nice to know that it was due to the direction rather than her ability.

I agree with your overall analysis, but I do think Dany is now officially mad. Otherwise wouldn't she have followed her advisors advice?

I have always seen the hints of madness in the books, but given her popularity in fandom thought maybe I was wrong or that GRRM would have her die heroically in the war against the AotD. Guess I was wrong. I don't mind too much, but I now feel sorry for her, which is funny because I always felt really "meh" about her before.

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In her madness, I think Daenerys became what she (subconsciously) always wanted to be - a Valyrian dragonlord. 

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I've always thought Emilia's performance of Daeny is one of the reasons I've liked the character so much. I never thought she was a bad actress. I mean that look on her face when she decides to burn KL, so much is there on her face--the pain, hurt, rage. Riveting. 

As for "is she truly mad" question--it really depends on your definition of crazy. She crossed a substantial line. She became everything she hated in a ruler--she became Cersei. I don't Daeny as going back or gaining any redemption in a way like Theon managed to do.

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10 minutes ago, north of the wall said:

Honestly I had issues with Emilia's acting as well until this season. It is nice to know that it was due to the direction rather than her ability.

I agree with your overall analysis, but I do think Dany is now officially mad. Otherwise wouldn't she have followed her advisors advice?

I have always seen the hints of madness in the books, but given her popularity in fandom thought maybe I was wrong or that GRRM would have her die heroically in the war against the AotD. Guess I was wrong. I don't mind too much, but I now feel sorry for her, which is funny because I always felt really "meh" about her before.

She no longer trusted her advisor that was left.  She has been suspicious of Tyrion ever since making it to Westeros.  Why would she actually believe the bells meant surrender?

 

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Just now, Winter prince said:

Why would she actually believe the bells meant surrender?

Cos the fighting also halted at that point for some time, until she pressed "resume" button.

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1 hour ago, Quillon said:

All these seasons I thought she was a bad actor, watching all those scenes where she burned her enemies and stared into the abyss without a hint of emotion while doing it. It made me dislike both her acting and the character. Now we know(from "inside the episode"), apparently she was instructed to act this way. Then again in some of those scenes she also showed pride. And we all thought...or most of us thought that there weren't any problem because she was killing slavers and savage dothraki khals to free slaves in the former case and gain the biggest khalasar in the latter(and also free them?). But the most important thing here is that she is a "killer", either enjoys killing like The Hound or more likely just doesn't have a problem with killing, which maybe worse(?), I'm not an expert. She is a character that has black and white morality; she can only care about people on her side: her friends, the innocent: slaves, all the "smallfolk" etc and she is utterly merciless when it comes to her enemies, she chooses killing even if there is a room for mercy, she has to be restrained/heavily counseled to show mercy. She is a killer, like we see a lot in movies & TV where a "killer" tells the supposedly good guy, that he/she hasn't in them to pull the trigger that he/she isn't a killer, but Dany is and by some margin too comfortable; she doesn't care when a room full of people burns to death around her. But all these things that you may agree or disagree don't make her "mad", she's flawed deeply in a certain way, like anybody could be in their ways. 

Also she lacks empathy to some extend; it is always about her for her :P and her unhealthy fixation on IT. f.i. she doesn't care why Jon needs to tell at least his family about what he really is, what he's been through growing up as a bastard etc. she never even asks. Ofc. the way Jon went about it was dumb and we have writers to blame for that but it doesn't change the fact that she doesn't care, she only cares about what is rightfully hers.

So about her burning a city full of people, whether innocent or enemy; I think that she's being a killer is loosely related here. There are many reasons shown for her to be pushed towards the edge; loosing the ones closest to her, suspecting(rightfully so) that her "loyal" advisers & supposed allies' scheming behind her, her realization that people of Westeros don't know or love her, like she's been used to etc. All of these stands against her purpose that is to get to her rightful place in the world(and break that wheel to be replaced by her own wheel which will be good for everyone in Westeros and everyone will live happily ever after, surely :D). She's frustrated, grieving, doubtful and some other adjectives also, so she snaps where she snapped. And the fact that she is a killer, comfortable with burning people by the score didn't hinder her on her massacre.

I guess now she's set on a path that is irreversible, she'll try to rule through fear...and fire & blood. I'm still not sure she's "mad", she is mad to level an entire city, yeah but is she truly mad? or did she become mad now that she done this?

 

We probably should have guessed, when she watched her brother's horrible death with no discernible emotion, and said 'he was no true dragon; fire cannot kill a dragon' or whatever.  (not that I thought Viserys didn't deserve to die, but he was her brother and you'd think she'd have regretted, afterwards, his being such a fool as to push Drogo into killing him)

Daenerys used to care about all the smallfolk; but not anymore; she just roasted thousands of them and also caused them to die from the collapse of the buildings her dragonfire destroyed.

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1 minute ago, Winter prince said:

She no longer trusted her advisor that was left.  She has been suspicious of Tyrion ever since making it to Westeros.  Why would she actually believe the bells meant surrender?

 

Because Smalltalk were yelling "ring the bells" she must be crazier than I think if she couldn't understand their fear and want to surrender. And before anyone suggests she couldn't hear it I don't believe that. The shot the scene from Dany and Cersei POV and both could hear the screaming of ring the bells

Whether she trusted Tyrion or not, she turned into who she was fighting against. If it was any issue of trust I think Dany would know right from wrong

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Posted (edited)
13 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

Daenerys used to care about all the smallfolk; but not anymore; she just roasted thousands of them and also caused them to die from the collapse of the buildings her dragonfire destroyed.

She only cares about people on her side and cares about the smallfolk also but also expects them to love her, cos that's what she's used to in the east and she can't handle the fact they don't even know her in Westeros. I mean she could have handled it but she was way too traumatized by her recent losses & betrayals at that point to think rationally.

I don't believe she meant to kill smallfolk specifically, she just didn't care for them being collateral damage among enemy soldiers, then she prolly lost it completely in the process, didn't care who or what she burnt. Her own soldiers was in danger; she prolly killed some of them also.

Edited by Quillon

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It's rather ironic (and a bit sad) that Tywin Lannister's forces sacked King's Landing while his two sons tried to preserve the city (Jaime in killing Aerys before he could 'burn it all down'; Tyrion in trying to broker Cersei's peaceful surrender to Dany and then trying to get her to end hostilities if/when the city surrendered).   Jaime could save King's Landing from Aerys' fires, but neither he nor his brother (or sister) could save it from the fires unleashed by Aerys' daughter.

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16 hours ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

We probably should have guessed, when she watched her brother's horrible death with no discernible emotion, and said 'he was no true dragon; fire cannot kill a dragon' or whatever.  (not that I thought Viserys didn't deserve to die, but he was her brother and you'd think she'd have regretted, afterwards, his being such a fool as to push Drogo into killing him)

Daenerys used to care about all the smallfolk; but not anymore; she just roasted thousands of them and also caused them to die from the collapse of the buildings her dragonfire destroyed.

This was just stupid writing. There was no way you can link the two. She watched the guy who tortured her and had her living in terror of him be killed. I don't see why she should feel bad. She cared about the small folk then becomes worse then aerys. Sorry it made no sense at all. It was just meant to have shock value. Next episode might have fake dany try to justify it somehow but I don't see it. It made no sense. The show runners need to be kept away from any future tv shows,movies,or books.

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Point me to one character who hasn’t been a killer. 

Of course she has always been a killer. She has been a queen. She has been a conquerer. The question is, what makes her more insane than any of the other characters who killed hundreds?  

Also, Daenerys never lacked compassion or empathy and it wasn’t always about her. Claiming that Daenerys was mad all along is ridiculous hindsight bias from the writer or director or whoever tries to feed this thing to the audience. 

It is okay for her to be mad, it is okay for the character and the story to take this turn as long as it’s consistent and founded within the narrative. For seven full seasons the narrative celebrated Daenerys’s actions as heroism and badassness and now they take these actions out of their original context, put it into the new one and claim it is foreshadowing or hinting or signs. It’s not. 

Emilia Clarke’s staring into the camera in a smug and satisfied manner isn’t a consciously crafted way to foreshadow her character’s madness. It’s a sloppy way to convey the strength and badassness of this strong and badass female character. Sophie Turner smirks into the camera after Ramsay is eaten by the hounds. The writers commented this scene as one of the rare moments they gave a character joy. Please make up your mind and decide what you want the audience to think about certain actions and be consistent about it. 

You can’t go ahead and say that Dumbledore’s death was foreshadowed in the first book when we found out he liked Bertie Botts because sugar kills. Like that’s just not how narrative works. 

There were ten thousand ways to turn Daenerys mad, one more tragic, sad and beautiful than the other. But nope. Nope. She just goes nuts in 1 second and we go back to season one and say she was already insane when she didn’t feel sorry for her abusive brother who threatened to cut her child out of her. 

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1 minute ago, RhaenysBee said:

Of course she has always been a killer. She has been a queen. She has been a conquerer. The question is, what makes her more insane than any of the other characters who killed hundreds?  

Ok, she is blonde. Lol I cant take this argument seriously anymore. 

Just because the show runners give pathetic excuses to cover the harsh way Dany’s character was treated and people buy it, now foreshadowing she would be mad by the way she held the dragons eggs at episode 2, it doesn’t mean it’s correct neither says anything about the character. 

I still remember them saying how Aryas character had changed taking a satisfaction after killing Frey’s who deserved it in a way but still there was something dark into this. Now they made her a hero for Westeros. 

 

 

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Robert, Ned, Robb Stark, Jon Snow, Brienne were/are killers, this is the society these people live in, they have to do it, I mean you can say it's an obligation to kill.

What Daenerys is, is a mass murderer and war criminal. Now in the same basket with Aerys, Tywin, Roose, Ramsay, Euron, etc.

 

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8 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

This was just stupid writing. There was no way you can link the two. She watched the guy who tortured her and had her living in terror of him be killed. I don't see why she should feel bad. She cared about the small folk then becomes worse then aerys. Sorry it made no sense at all. It was just meant to have shock value. Next episode might have fake dany try to justify it somehow but I don't see it. It made no sense. The show runners need to be kept away from any future tv shows,movies,or books.

 

"The guy who tortured her and had her living in terror of him" was also the older brother who had cared for her when there was no one else, and the only constant from her childhood.  I could understand Daenerys not protesting Viserys' death, but it's a bit odd that she was so detached and calm when he dies, and does not appear to mourn the protective brother she had once respected.

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6 minutes ago, Raksha 2014 said:

 

"The guy who tortured her and had her living in terror of him" was also the older brother who had cared for her when there was no one else, and the only constant from her childhood.  I could understand Daenerys not protesting Viserys' death, but it's a bit odd that she was so detached and calm when he dies, and does not appear to mourn the protective brother she had once respected.

Your thinking of the books. There we hear how he was once nice and protective and how he started to go insane. We don't see or hear any of that in the show. Just him being brutal and cruel towards her. She wasn't a saint and I never said she was. But there is a BIG difference between that and doing what she did. She outdid aerys because...nope no reason just for shock value. I am always the one to defend the writers and say things like "well if you look at it this way" or how it is acceptable because they have a budget and a time limit. Nope I am done with it. This made no sense. Jons attitude towards her when they get together made no sense.

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13 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Robert, Ned, Robb Stark, Jon Snow, Brienne were/are killers, this is the society these people live in, they have to do it, I mean you can say it's an obligation to kill.

What Daenerys is, is a mass murderer and war criminal. Now in the same basket with Aerys, Tywin, Roose, Ramsay, Euron, etc.

 

Actually fake danny is worse then roose and even aerys. Aerys was gonna burn down the city because he lost and it was a mixture of "I'll take you out with me" and "if I can't have it then noone can" Not saying it was right because it was evil. They had her burn a city to the ground for no reason except shock value. 

The show destroyed one of the fan favorites for shock value. Nothing else. It would have...nope I am done.

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

Point me to one character who hasn’t been a killer. 

Of course she has always been a killer. She has been a queen. She has been a conquerer. The question is, what makes her more insane than any of the other characters who killed hundreds?  

Also, Daenerys never lacked compassion or empathy and it wasn’t always about her. Claiming that Daenerys was mad all along is ridiculous hindsight bias from the writer or director or whoever tries to feed this thing to the audience. 

It is okay for her to be mad, it is okay for the character and the story to take this turn as long as it’s consistent and founded within the narrative. For seven full seasons the narrative celebrated Daenerys’s actions as heroism and badassness and now they take these actions out of their original context, put it into the new one and claim it is foreshadowing or hinting or signs. It’s not. 

Emilia Clarke’s staring into the camera in a smug and satisfied manner isn’t a consciously crafted way to foreshadow her character’s madness. It’s a sloppy way to convey the strength and badassness of this strong and badass female character. Sophie Turner smirks into the camera after Ramsay is eaten by the hounds. The writers commented this scene as one of the rare moments they gave a character joy. Please make up your mind and decide what you want the audience to think about certain actions and be consistent about it. 

You can’t go ahead and say that Dumbledore’s death was foreshadowed in the first book when we found out he liked Bertie Botts because sugar kills. Like that’s just not how narrative works. 

There were ten thousand ways to turn Daenerys mad, one more tragic, sad and beautiful than the other. But nope. Nope. She just goes nuts in 1 second and we go back to season one and say she was already insane when she didn’t feel sorry for her abusive brother who threatened to cut her child out of her. 

Well, there are characters who are killers, most every notable ones are actually but there are killers like Jon or supposedly Rhaegar who doesn't like it; The Hound, The Mountain, Jaime who are enjoying it and there is Dany who doesn't care about it, she is effectively half sociopath :P Who burns someone and doesn't even flinch at the sight of it?

Yeah she has compassion and to a lesser extend empathy probably but only for the ones on her side. I never claimed she was mad all along, I'm still not sure if she is now as I already said. She was flawed in a certain way all along and when she has this much power that flaw and buncha other reasons combined to a devastating effect.

Ofc we'll see more build-up phase in the books but the show tried very hard to convey her descend; maybe its rushed but it was not like "she goes nuts in 1s", she lost too much in too little time before she snapped.

Edited by Quillon

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What sort of build up did you expect with only 6 episodes?

That being said, there have been PLENTY of breadcrumbs along the way what with all the tension with Sansa and the North, Jon's lineage, her advisors plotting against her, etc.  To say it was out of the blue or simply for shock value is totally inaccurate IMO. I think Dany fans just want to keep their heads in the sand.

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