Daenerys has always been a killer

[3sm1r]

1 minute ago, Daske said:

But even if it was completely out of the blue and she just snapped, then fine. That happens. Part of madness is that it isn't logical to other people looking on. That's why it's madness, because it is irrational and out of control.

Exactly. I really don't get most of the reactions. They appear to complain because an irrational person does something irrational. What's so strange about it?

Besides, I don't get how can anyone claim that this was not anticipated. It was established pretty clearly that she had the potential to be violent and ruthless. It was clearly established that her emotional status was terrible in that moment. Wasn't that enough?

[Hodor's Dragon]

25 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

From the way I understood the episode, it is kind of supposed to "make no sense", since she's blinded by her anger. She's behaving in an irrational way because she got insane. Trying to explain what she does with logic is the wrong way to go, in my opinion.

You shouldn't have actions that "make no sense" from the protagonist in the next-to-last chapter of a 10,000-page book. It makes no sense in the story context. You should be able to anticipate the protagonist's actions, and here you just can't. That Daenerys might do something questionable out of anger would not be a shock at all, but that she should suddenly slaughter hundreds of thousands of people for absolutely no reason but to be feared is a complete 180 from the 1st 9900 pages.

7 minutes ago, Daske said:

There have been many hints at this coming, and they laid it on even thicker this season.

But even if it was completely out of the blue and she just snapped, then fine. That happens. Part of madness is that it isn't logical to other people looking on. That's why it's madness, because it is irrational and out of control.

 

No, it's not just fine for the protagonist to just snap completely out of the blue on page 9900 and render the first 9900 pages bullshit.

[Kajjo]

2 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

No, it's not just fine for the protagonist to just snap completely out of the blue on page 9900 and render the first 9900 pages bullshit.

Didn't happen. Stop this bullshitting.

Hundreds of Youtube videos discussed Daenerys possible bersek since seasons and years. Not out of the blue. Very well argued for, with a lot of quotes and scenes. 

Season 8 built up to her snapping quite well. She being lonely, not loved, deciding to use fear instead of love after all. Daenerys lonesome at the wake feast. Betrayed by Jon, Tyrion and Vary. Lost two dragons. Lost Missandei and Jorah. Lost her dreams that Viserys brainwashed into her (and she reported them at Jaime's trial to remind us).

No, no, it's simply not true. Some people might not have paid attention, but Daenerys' arc was portrayed and foreshadowed well from S1 to S8. 

[Hodor's Dragon]

Just now, Kajjo said:

Didn't happen. Stop this bullshitting.

Hundreds of Youtube videos discussed Daenerys possible bersek since seasons and years. Not out of the blue. Very well argued for, with a lot of quotes and scenes. 

Season 8 built up to her snapping quite well. She being lonely, not loved, deciding to use fear instead of love after all. Daenerys lonesome at the wake feast. Betrayed by Jon, Tyrion and Vary. Lost two dragons. Lost Missandei and Jorah. Lost her dreams that Viserys brainwashed into her (and she reported them at Jaime's trial to remind us).

No, no, it's simply not true. Some people might not have paid attention, but Daenerys' arc was portrayed and foreshadowed well from S1 to S8. 

Give me one thing she has done to make it believable that she would kill a group of people for no reason or that suddenly going nuclear wouldn't be a 180.. I keep asking, you just keep saying it happened and never giving me an example. Screw vague references to hundreds of vague youtubes. Give me an example.

[3sm1r]

9 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

You shouldn't have actions that "make no sense" from the protagonist in the next-to-last chapter of a 10,000-page book. It makes no sense in the story context. You should be able to anticipate the protagonist's actions, and here you just can't. That Daenerys might do something questionable out of anger would not be a shock at all, but that she should suddenly slaughter hundreds of thousands of people for absolutely no reason but to be feared is a complete 180 from the 1st 9900 pages. 

I wouldn't call it a 180. She has shown to be ruthless several times in the past. Also, the possibility that she might end up getting mad was suggested in more than one occasion, especially considering her descendance. If you're saying that it could have been written better, well, I'm with you, but this is true for most of the episodes of the last three seasons. Still, I really don't think it came out of nowhere. In fact, I'd argue that it was pretty strongly anticipated. 

[Nightwish]

Why are we saying that she is going mad? 

This might be a political act of her part. She doesn't want Kings Landing as it is. She is betrayed by everyone, she no longer hopes that there is a point of trying to act as the good girl because here she saved the world or at least tried and no ones gives a damn. So this is a world she doesn't want, doesn't trust and wants to shutter it all the way.

You can say that she went that far into cruelty because she is so frustrated and disappointed by all of them, she feels that neither way she has nothing to lose. 

She doesn't trust Tyrion's plans, that's the one that brought her to her knees and cost her so much time and men. 

She doesn't trust Cersei's surrender, she is the one who had promised to help them just to buy time for herself. 

She doesn't trust the people of Kings Landing not rallying against her and Kings Landing becoming another Mereen.

She wants to establish herself without doubts.

So she decides to finish this once and for all. 

This isn't madness. 

[3sm1r]

5 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

This isn't madness.  

She killed thousands of harmless civilians, women and children included.

[Varys_was_right]

9 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Why are we saying that she is going mad? 

This might be a political act of her part. She doesn't want Kings Landing as it is. She is betrayed by everyone, she no longer hopes that there is a point of trying to act as the good girl because here she saved the world or at least tried and no ones gives a damn. So this is a world she doesn't want, doesn't trust and wants to shutter it all the way.

You can say that she went that far into cruelty because she is so frustrated and disappointed by all of them, she feels that neither way she has nothing to lose. 

She doesn't trust Tyrion's plans, that's the one that brought her to her knees and cost her so much time and men. 

She doesn't trust Cersei's surrender, she is the one who had promised to help them just to buy time for herself. 

She doesn't trust the people of Kings Landing not rallying against her and Kings Landing becoming another Mereen.

She wants to establish herself without doubts.

So she decides to finish this once and for all. 

This isn't madness. 

Maybe she should just exterminate the entire human population? I mean, there's a chance some unknown person could betray her. Have to make sure. Then, she'll probably have to kill her dragon after she's done with humanity. Might not be able to trust him either.

[Cas Stark]

35 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Give me one thing she has done to make it believable that she would kill a group of people for no reason or that suddenly going nuclear wouldn't be a 180.. I keep asking, you just keep saying it happened and never giving me an example. Screw vague references to hundreds of vague youtubes. Give me an example.

She's been saying she would burn cities to the ground since season 2, and that her enemies would die screaming, that she will 'take what is mine with fire and blood'.  She said in this episode that the people of KL should have revolted against Cersei, so she doesn't seem them as innocent.  And she has always used the dragons to show her power.

 

[Daske]

31 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

No, it's not just fine for the protagonist to just snap completely out of the blue on page 9900 and render the first 9900 pages bullshit.

If you haven't seen hints of what may be coming then all I can say is that many of us did see it coming. Or at least a big possibility of it given the hints.

There have been scores of threads on both the book and TV sections here for years about it.

And even if you ignore those, it's been pretty clear this season episode by episode she's been losing it (they made a very obvious effort to show her deteriorating as she gradually loses all her support structure - Jorah, the dragons, Jon, Missandei, Varys, Tyrion). We've been talking about it in the pub as an almost certainty for weeks!

 

[Hodor's Dragon]

She has talked all kinds of shit. Threats have been a big part of her game. But so far as actually carrying them out, she has been limited and reasonable (from a medieval perspective).

But she has never hurt people for no reason. To have her suddenly burn the whole city down after the battle is over is not consistent with her character in any way, shape or form.

Yeah, of course we got hints she has a harsh temper. She has always kept it in control, though, and used it when it was meaningful and advanced her cause, not just for personal revenge. Hints that she would slaughter large numbers of people for no good reason? NO. THERE HAVE BEEN ZERO HINTS OF THAT.

This makes me hope Martin finishes the books more than ever. If he gets to this same spot, he will do so believably. It's certainly doable, but these clowns didn't even really try. 

[Nightwish]

14 minutes ago, Varys_was_right said:

Maybe she should just exterminate the entire human population? I mean, there's a chance some unknown person could betray her. Have to make sure. Then, she'll probably have to kill her dragon after she's done with humanity. Might not be able to trust him either.

You can see her as you wish, after all Dany has been destroyed beyond control, but I don't see her as a mad person, I see her as a "desparate" person unable to trust anyone after all she suffered and wanting to establish a new kingdom for herself. 

[BlackLightning]

The fact that the bells are suddenly understood by everyone to mean surrender is bad writing and a massive plot hole.

 

 

 

[Nightwish]

21 minutes ago, 3sm1r said:

She killed thousands of harmless civilians, women and children included.

Because she wants to destroy the old world? Lack of empathy, sympathy or whatever for civilians does not make you crazy or mad. Just cold-hearted, ruthless, cruel. What I am saying is that her mind is perfectly well and wants to finish everything and everyone in Kings Landing after the treatment she got and all the loses she suffered to start a new kingdom without the fear that they will doubt or betrayed her. At least at the beginning.  

 

[3sm1r]

8 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Yeah, of course we got hints she has a harsh temper. She has always kept it in control, though, and used it when it was meaningful and advanced her cause, not just for personal revenge. Hints that she would slaughter large numbers of people for no good reason? NO. THERE HAVE BEEN ZERO HINTS OF THAT. 

They showed that she can be a "harsh temper", as you correctly pointed out. They showed that she can kill out of anger, and do it in a pretty brutal way. They showed that her emotional state was significantly altered by watching her beloved friend being beheaded. They stressed several times that there were crazy people among her ancestors. All this stuff, for myself and many others, is a sufficient amount of information to buy what happens in the show. Yet, I am sorry that it didn't work for you. Disappointment is understandable. 

[Dragonslack]

So mad suddenly because D&D decide so? Alrighty then, plot and logic out the window.

 

Always been a killer? How could she even survive without doing that. Did it many times before, but now she is mad.

Should she trust the useless imp that even then thinks cercei that hates him will just quit because baby for the 1000th time? Perhaps issue a pardon to euron too?

If the imp had not stopped her in the beginning from just burning the red keep everything would be better. What was really the imp's plan? wait forever for a surrender, pray?

 

Who in this show has not killed? Perfect Ned? he killed, he lied, etc.

Jon? He killed a kid, his brothers, his first love. 

Did you call Tywin a madman for sacking kings landing? For breaking the sacred law and costume and slaughtering thousands with treachery?

 

 

[BlackLightning]

I don't think Daenerys is insane either.

I think the fact that Cersei had the gall to try and surrender without leaving the Red Keep and her human shields after killing Missandei during a parley just made her snap.

She just flew into a rage. Like everyone else (except for Jon, Davos, Arya and Tyrion) did.

This is not madness. This is called being pushed over the edge.

We've all known someone who just completely lost their temper and went ballistic. Do we say that they're mentally ill?

In any case, it is also a case of horrible writing. No one flies into a rage for that long of a period of time. Daenerys had been burning the city for hours. On top of that, the same streets were set aflame at least three times over. And under every other circumstance, the trigger (in this case, the bells) would be the first to suffer said rampage.

It's ludicrous. For example, let's say there is a kid who is constantly getting bullied and no one is able to help him. One day, when the bully is poking the kid hard with a wooden stick, the bullied kid finally snaps. But the kid attacks everyone except for the actual bully.. And the kid doesn't even knock away the stick.

That's what this episode was.

The fact that Daenerys didn't destroy the belltower, make a dragonfiery beeline for the Red Keep and blow it to smithereens is bad writing. It's like D&D don't even understand human emotion.

Speaking of which, since when did dragonfire have concussive force.

[Aedam Targaryen]

4 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

The fact that Daenerys didn't destroy the belltower, make a dragonfiery beeline for the Red Keep and blow it to smithereens is bad writing. It's like D&D don't even understand human emotion.

EXACTLY! She has always hated the Lannister’s and always protected the small folk. Then she gets SO mad at Cersei that she starts killing smallfolk while taking her sweet ass time to get to the Red Keep? It’s just silly. I know mental breakdowns aren’t logical and can’t really be understood, but this breakdown seems to change her core values. I understand a breakdown amplifying her rage that she has been holding back a lot of this time, but her love of smallfolk seemed genuine. She wasn’t forcing herself to look like she cared about smallfolk for her own political gain, she seemed to genuinely care for them. Until they were ashes anyway. 

I was ready for mad Danny this week, I expected her to burn some stuff and collaterally kill some smallfolk. Burning down the red keep in a rage while incurring collateral damage was understandable. What actually happened did not make any sense to me. 

[Daemon The Black Dragon]

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Didn't happen. Stop this bullshitting.

Hundreds of Youtube videos discussed Daenerys possible bersek since seasons and years. Not out of the blue. Very well argued for, with a lot of quotes and scenes. 

Season 8 built up to her snapping quite well. She being lonely, not loved, deciding to use fear instead of love after all. Daenerys lonesome at the wake feast. Betrayed by Jon, Tyrion and Vary. Lost two dragons. Lost Missandei and Jorah. Lost her dreams that Viserys brainwashed into her (and she reported them at Jaime's trial to remind us).

No, no, it's simply not true. Some people might not have paid attention, but Daenerys' arc was portrayed and foreshadowed well from S1 to S8. 

Having someone show normal emotions for things that have happened to them and then having that person burn a city down after it surrenders. Wasn't built up well in really just 2 episodes of the final season. Did you believe after episode 1,2 or 3 that Dany was going to massacre a city that surrendered to her? Probably not. They really started pushing the "mad" Dany role in episode 4 of a 6 episode final season . That feels really rushed to a lot of people, myself included.

[3sm1r]

7 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Having someone show normal emotions for things that have happened to them and then having that person burn a city down after it surrenders. Wasn't built up well in really just 2 episodes of the final season. Did you believe after episode 1,2 or 3 that Dany was going to massacre a city that surrendered to her? Probably not. They really started pushing the "mad" Dany role in episode 4 of a 6 episode final season . That feels really rushed to a lot of people, myself included. 

I started thinking that she might bring problems to Westeros when she crucified those prisoners. I don't think the show is well written, but I wouldn't say that her madness had no anticipation either. Its possibility has been implied several times in the show.