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Quillon

Daenerys has always been a killer

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2 hours ago, Skills said:

What sort of build up did you expect with only 6 episodes?

That being said, there have been PLENTY of breadcrumbs along the way what with all the tension with Sansa and the North, Jon's lineage, her advisors plotting against her, etc.  To say it was out of the blue or simply for shock value is totally inaccurate IMO. I think Dany fans just want to keep their heads in the sand.

Agree. Dany said she will conquer Westeros with blood and fire. She kept her promise. Dany would burn Sansa because she knows about Jon and she hasn't bent her knee. Dany wouldn't tolerate anybody on her way. People are horrified by Aeris burning the Starks, but Dany is doing the same, burning people who defy her. 

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47 minutes ago, Roza Ahai said:

Dany would burn Sansa because she knows about Jon and she hasn't bent her knee.

Sansa bent her knee as in accepted Dany as her queen. Tho for some reason no one knelt in front of their queen in this season so far.

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8 hours ago, Quillon said:

Well, there are characters who are killers, most every notable ones are actually but there are killers like Jon or supposedly Rhaegar who doesn't like it; The Hound, The Mountain, Jaime who are enjoying it and there is Dany who doesn't care about it, she is effectively half sociopath :P Who burns someone and doesn't even flinch at the sight of it?

Yeah she has compassion and to a lesser extend empathy probably but only for the ones on her side. I never claimed she was mad all along, I'm still not sure if she is now as I already said. She was flawed in a certain way all along and when she has this much power that flaw and buncha other reasons combined to a devastating effect.

Ofc we'll see more build-up phase in the books but the show tried very hard to convey her descend; maybe its rushed but it was not like "she goes nuts in 1s", she lost too much in too little time before she snapped.

Well, Stannis, Melisandre, Kinvara, Selyse (as long as it’s not her daughter), I could go on, if I still remembered names from the books. My point is, and has always been, that nothing was done to set Daenerys apart through her actions. She killed for revenge or what she believed to be justice. This is no different from what other characters have been doing without being labeled mad. 

I’m not saying she isn’t mad or she shouldn’t be. Or that the problem is that her character ended this way. The problem is how it was done. Yes, Daenerys is the mad queen now, no arguing, but it is terrible writing and a terrible story. Daenerys could have become the mad queen through a heart wrenching, tragic process that would have made the audience bawl their eyes out. But that would have taken time and effort and thought, and clearly none of these things were put into writing this show. 

The biggest problem with season 8 is that it doesn’t implode and self-destruct like season 7 or season 6 did. (And I’m no longer talking ablution daenerys’s Madness specifically). It explodes and destroys all the previous seasons in retrospect as well. Not only does season 8 narrative make no sense whatsoever, it sucks out the logic and coherence from alllllll the previous seasons as well. It fucks with the message they’ve conveyed in season 1, it fucks with the message they conveyed in season 6-7 (so it’s not even a show vs book thing, it’s a season versus human brain thing). It doesn’t simply fail to build a coherent story, it destroys the coherent story the show has (attempted to) build up until now. And that’s not subversion, that’s not the fans being stupid or petty or having too high expectations. That’s one thing. Poor, atrocious, stupid, lazy writing. 

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9 hours ago, snow is the man said:

Actually fake danny is worse then roose and even aerys. Aerys was gonna burn down the city because he lost and it was a mixture of "I'll take you out with me" and "if I can't have it then noone can" Not saying it was right because it was evil. They had her burn a city to the ground for no reason except shock value. 

The show destroyed one of the fan favorites for shock value. Nothing else. It would have...nope I am done.

I agree. I have to retreat and say that surely Tywin would not have burnt King's Landing for sport like she did.

This is her in the show now, and we should perceive her as she is here.

Books are different story.

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1 minute ago, M.Alhazred said:

This has been shown several times throughout the show that Dany has no mercy.Those people in KL aren't her supporters they are meaningless pawns and she simply cleared the board. 

Daenerys has no time for defiance, correct. The point is that she self-identifies as a liberator, a figure of justice. Burning the city for no purpose whatsoever - and in direct contradiction of her personal identity - is pointless in every sense. Oh, and she actually wants to rule these people.

If they really wanted her to burn everything, have it based off a misunderstanding. Have her burn the Red Keep, come out expecting to be worshipped like a goddess by the people, then have a scorpion (fired after the surrender) hurt Drogon. She sees red, and the rest is history. 

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1 minute ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Oh, and she actually wants to rule these people.

"I have no love. I have only fear. So, let it be fear." -- She decided to rule by fear after the kissing scene with Jon.

1 minute ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

The point is that she self-identifies as a liberator, a figure of justice.

Somehow yes, but she self-identifies much stronger as the rightful queen and wants to rule at all costs. This is believable.

2 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Burning the city for no purpose whatsoever - and in direct contradiction of her personal identity - is pointless in every sense. 

She snaps. Madness needs no reason. That's easy to understand.

I see it as a mixture of wanting to rule by fear after realising love won't work. And snapping while doing so and overdoing it.

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11 minutes ago, The Sunland Lord said:

I agree. I have to retreat and say that surely Tywin would not have burnt King's Landing for sport like she did.

Tywin would have not burned the city because doing so would have been counter-productive. If he absolutely had to, he'd order someone else to do it, then kill off that someone once the job was done.

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2 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

Daenerys has no time for defiance, correct. The point is that she self-identifies as a liberator, a figure of justice. Burning the city for no purpose whatsoever - and in direct contradiction of her personal identity - is pointless in every sense. Oh, and she actually wants to rule these people.

If they really wanted her to burn everything, have it based off a misunderstanding. Have her burn the Red Keep, come out expecting to be worshipped like a goddess by the people, then have a scorpion (fired after the surrender) hurt Drogon. She sees red, and the rest is history. 

Ultimately Cersi brought this on all of them when she killed Missandei and one of the dragons that was it.KL and everyone in it were dead.A bit off topic: Why did she stay in the RK when Lannister support would be strongest at Lannisport? Or did she not think they would make it back south?

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

"I have no love. I have only fear. So, let it be fear." -- She decided to rule by fear after the kissing scene with Jon.

Somehow yes, but she self-identifies much stronger as the rightful queen and wants to rule at all costs. This is believable.

She snaps. Madness needs no reason. That's easy to understand.

I see it as a mixture of wanting to rule by fear after realising love won't work. And snapping while doing so and overdoing it.

Again: her "thing" is overthrowing tyranny. Being the breaker of chains. Breaker of the wheel. A truly mad Daenerys would incinerate every last Lannister soldier - but not the ordinary people. 

As for fear, she's broken Machiavelli's golden rule. It is better to be feared than loved, so long as one is not hated. The handful of survivors - never mind the Lords of Westeros - are going to oppose her relentlessly. Murder in her sleep. Poison. Without Drogon she is finished as a ruler - and Drogon is every bit as vulnerable as Rhaegal and Viserion. 

Edited by The Marquis de Leech

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4 minutes ago, M.Alhazred said:

Ultimately Cersi brought this on all of them when she killed Missandei and one of the dragons that was it.KL and everyone in it were dead.A bit off topic: Why did she stay in the RK when Lannister support would be strongest at Lannisport? Or did she not think they would make it back south?

No, Cersei did not cause this. Daenerys caused it. Or, more accurately, the character formerly known as Daenerys.

Cersei stayed put in King's Landing because it is/was the capital. Her claim to the throne is literally the fact that it was her posterior on the Iron Throne.

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2 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

Well, Stannis, Melisandre, Kinvara, Selyse (as long as it’s not her daughter), I could go on, if I still remembered names from the books. My point is, and has always been, that nothing was done to set Daenerys apart through her actions. She killed for revenge or what she believed to be justice. This is no different from what other characters have been doing without being labeled mad. 

Melisandre & Kinvara are believers, they don't think what they are doing is evil in the service of their god. This also applies to Selyse, plus she is weak minded and follows Melisandre to that certain point. Stannis is extremely ruthless but he knows what he's doing and things being done for him are wrong but he's full of pride and without hope so he consents, in the end he realizes he was too far gone anyway. Maybe these characters are not that different from Dany; If you give an army and a dragon to Melisandre, maybe she would burn everyone who won't convert to the Red God, believing she's righteous, yet she doesn't have the means but Dany does.

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2 hours ago, M.Alhazred said:

This has been shown several times throughout the show that Dany has no mercy.Those people in KL aren't her supporters they are meaningless pawns and she simply cleared the board. 

"No mercy"?- "Throughout the show"?

Don't you remember her shackling 2 of her 3 "children" in chains and condemning them to a terrible life (or death, because they didn't eat anything there) in a deep, dark dungeon because she feared that they could harm innocent people???

The merciless queen of ashes? With her abominable Targaryen genes?

 

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45 minutes ago, Torienne said:

"No mercy"?- "Throughout the show"?

Don't you remember her shackling 2 of her 3 "children" in chains and condemning them to a terrible life (or death, because they didn't eat anything there) in a deep, dark dungeon because she feared that they could harm innocent people???

The merciless queen of ashes? With her abominable Targaryen genes?

 

Exactly. Plus, Daeny knows the damage her dragons can do and her restraint in battle has proven that. Daeny has always used surgical military strikes when attacking with her dragons. 

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4 minutes ago, Quillon said:

No mercy for her enemies. 

So you're saying the Daeny sees civilians in kings landing, people she's never spoken to and who are forced behind city walls to be used as meat shields for Cersei,  as her enemies? That makes no sense. 

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The show presents us with Varys suggesting that Dany has suddenly inherited her father and brother’s mental illness, with no prior symptoms. Remember Dany locked up all of her dragons for months because one of them accidentally killed ONE child while hunting for food. You can't even call what she did blood lust when she stopped burning things for several minutes and just sat there perched on Drogon and then started attacking after the surrender was official. The only purpose of that being to show that she is evil now, nothing grey about this action. Surprises are only good if they are earned. Anybody can make up a plot twist that makes no sense and call it "surprising". Not that Dany going mad was really a surprise giving all of Varys heavy handed concerns. It's just that his concerns had no actual evidence at that point to support having them. Being retroactively correct doesn't mean they were well founded at the time.

Being merciless to enemies is hardly comparable to randomly killing innocents. Especially when protecting innocents has been one of her primary concerns since season 1. 

Every past and present leader on the show from every faction has done something that could be considered merciless to enemies, including Jon hanging a 10 year old. Nobody thinks these were signs they might be going mad.

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23 minutes ago, tallTale said:

So you're saying the Daeny sees civilians in kings landing, people she's never spoken to and who are forced behind city walls to be used as meat shields for Cersei,  as her enemies? That makes no sense. 

From the way I understood the episode, it is kind of supposed to "make no sense", since she's blinded by her anger. She's behaving in an irrational way because she got insane. Trying to explain what she does with logic is the wrong way to go, in my opinion.

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, tallTale said:

So you're saying the Daeny sees civilians in kings landing, people she's never spoken to and who are forced behind city walls to be used as meat shields for Cersei,  as her enemies? That makes no sense. 

That's after she snapped. Tho she might already have made up her mind when she last spoke to Jon, I mean she did made up her mind about ruling through fear and after she went over the edge I guess she decided to make an example of kinglanders so in the future everyone will know their fate if they won't come to her side. And she had the stomach for doing the deed which she's shown through the seasons by mercilessly burning her enemies while staring blankly...without flinching.

And no, she didn't become mad cos she mercilessly killed her enemies in the past, which only helped(or cursed?) her after she snapped. She became mad cos of this and this and that and that other thing(there are lists of things that happened to her in many threads atm) and her unhealthy fixation on IT. 

ps: I realized I'm still making up my mind about this as I go... I guess I settled on her being mad now. She's mad, yo.

Edited by Quillon

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There have been many hints at this coming, and they laid it on even thicker this season.

But even if it was completely out of the blue and she just snapped, then fine. That happens. Part of madness is that it isn't logical to other people looking on. That's why it's madness, because it is irrational and out of control.

 

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