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Quillon

Daenerys has always been a killer

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49 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Did you believe after episode 1,2 or 3 that Dany was going to massacre a city that surrendered to her?

Of course no one expected any particular details, but that Daenerys might snap and then "burn them all" performs was possible von S1 to S8 and built up very well. 

People are too worked up about this "surrendered" issue. She snapped. This is not about reason, but madness or at least irrationality.

She probably reasoned with herself about instilling fear instead of love, but that doesn't make it reasonable in itself. 

52 minutes ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

That feels really rushed to a lot of people

Yes, season 8 is a bit rushed with everything. 

But no, since season 1 you should have expected Daenerys to do cruel and violent things. It was very clearly foreshadowed and I expected so much. Not exactly the outcome, not exactly a surrendered city, but turning mad and destroying King's Landing was even mentioned before.

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5 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Of course no one expected any particular details, but that Daenerys might snap and then "burn them all" performs was possible von S1 to S8 and built up very well. 

People are too worked up about this "surrendered" issue. She snapped. This is not about reason, but madness or at least irrationality.

She probably reasoned with herself about instilling fear instead of love, but that doesn't make it reasonable in itself. 

Yes, season 8 is a bit rushed with everything. 

But no, since season 1 you should have expected Daenerys to do cruel and violent things. It was very clearly foreshadowed and I expected so much. Not exactly the outcome, not exactly a surrendered city, but turning mad and destroying King's Landing was even mentioned before.

You can have all the foreshadowing in a story you want but when it's comes time to deliver on the thing you've been foreshadowing, you better not f it up. That's what D&D did here. I said this after episode 4, I don't have a problem with Dany going "mad", it's the execution of it I have a problem with. 

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9 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

I don't have a problem with Dany going "mad"

OK, but many other's seem to have a major problem with that.

9 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

it's the execution of it I have a problem with. 

So, please be as concrete as possible. What was so bad about the execution?

There was both long-time build-up from S1 to S7 and short-time build up in S4 and S5. How much more should they do in your eyes? What would have satisfied you?

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17 hours ago, Daemon The Black Dragon said:

Having someone show normal emotions for things that have happened to them and then having that person burn a city down after it surrenders. Wasn't built up well in really just 2 episodes of the final season. Did you believe after episode 1,2 or 3 that Dany was going to massacre a city that surrendered to her? Probably not. They really started pushing the "mad" Dany role in episode 4 of a 6 episode final season . That feels really rushed to a lot of people, myself included.

I had no reason to believe that it would happen like this specifically.

But, from an early stage, I've thought she's had it in her to do something very cruel and ruthless.

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7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I had no reason to believe that it would happen like this specifically.

But, from an early stage, I've thought she's had it in her to do something very cruel and ruthless.

Same for me. We had to expect fire and blood, violence and ruthlessness all the time. She would have acted so if not for her advisers.

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Alright, I thought short and easy on this and I think Dany didn't snapped whilst the bells rang. If she snapped at all it was when Missandei got executed or in between the time till Jon's arrival, She contemplated alone in grief and arrived at two choices; ruling through fear(as she told Jon) and ruling with Jon as her consort. She only indulged herself one last attempt at Jon knowing the outcome. With all the losses and betrayals she suffered she thought of herself alone and she was determined that she won't be able to keep the IT when she got it so she decided for a show of force and to make an example of KL even before the battle. It would have been easier if they didn't surrender so the bells came as a shock, at that moment she could just accept their surrender and hoped for the best but she believed if there was any chance of her keeping the throne it would be through fear. And we saw her face when she made the decision...

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3 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Same for me. We had to expect fire and blood, violence and ruthlessness all the time. She would have acted so if not for her advisers.

To her enemies, sure.  To innocents?  It's a complete 180 from her attitude from season 1 to now where she went out of her way to protect the innocent.  She locked up her dragons for months because one of them killed ONE child while hunting for food.  She ordered the Dothraki to not rape those she conquered.  Her intentions were to save the witch who ended up killing Drogo.   She crucified the Masters because of what they did to the slave children.  She is ruthless to her enemies, she has made a priority of protecting the weak and innocent.

Which potential candidate for the Iron Throne hasn't killed lots of people?  Why is Dany killing enemies a clear sign she is going mad, when every leader of every faction has done horrible things to their enemies?  The only thing that Dany has done which can be called mad is burning King's Landing.  Being cruel and ruthless to enemies is not the same thing as being insane.  Or do you think Tywin was also insane?

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1 hour ago, Quillon said:

Alright, I thought short and easy on this and I think Dany didn't snapped whilst the bells rang. If she snapped at all it was when Missandei got executed or in between the time till Jon's arrival, She contemplated alone in grief and arrived at two choices; ruling through fear(as she told Jon) and ruling with Jon as her consort. She only indulged herself one last attempt at Jon knowing the outcome. With all the losses and betrayals she suffered she thought of herself alone and she was determined that she won't be able to keep the IT when she got it so she decided for a show of force and to make an example of KL even before the battle. It would have been easier if they didn't surrender so the bells came as a shock, at that moment she could just accept their surrender and hoped for the best but she believed if there was any chance of her keeping the throne it would be through fear. And we saw her face when she made the decision...

That would be my take as well. Her speech to Tyrion, her talk with Grey Worm... Showed that she sees all inhabitants of KL guilty of not overthrowing Cersei and that she wants them to suffer. With Jon she accepts that she will never be loved and so she'd make sure everyone fears her.

When the bells started to ring, she was at crossroads. She could follow last Jorah's advice and trust Tyrion and ascend to the unsure unloved throne... Or she could teach everyone a lesson as she wanted.

 

Also a note for anyone believing burning down Red Keep would be enough - not in her view. Her goal is not to frighten the people of King's Landing, but to frighten the entire continent by burning it's biggest city to crisp.

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6 hours ago, Kajjo said:

<snip>

There was both long-time build-up from S1 to S7 and short-time build up in S4 and S5. How much more should they do in your eyes? What would have satisfied you?

People don't have to be able to deliver brilliant plot designs to be able to tell when they see one that's fucked up.

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Posted (edited)

Well as already been pointed out, most people on the show are "killers". You pretty much have to be a killer to be in power in a Medieval Society. Even Ned Stark killed people.

The difference is that until now Daenerys stopped before she actively killed innocents (with the possible exception of that capital punishment against the Masters in Meereen, kinda hard to find out whether everyone she executed was part of the "let's nail children to the wayside" plot. Particularly because we don't know how the executed Masters were selected) and she even went out of her way and accepted harm towards herself and setbacks in her goals to avoid actively harming innocents. 

She wanted to break the wheel....yes, but what people so like to forget to quote is that she wanted to break the wheel because it was endlessly spinning, crushing those on the ground.

Then last episode she actively and deliberately murdered hundreds of thousands of innocents (went to great lengths and harmed her goals to murder them) and made herself worse than literally every other person that has appeared on the show.

You don't really have to do that to Daenerys' character to show that her going to Westeros to "take back her throne" is not a moral decision. That has been pointed out and outright stated on screen since Season 1. Nobody except her cared that the Baratheons were in power instead of the Targaryens and Robert's reign was a peaceful and prosperous one.
But I'm still of the opinion that her going to Westeros to become Queen on the IT is neither how her story will end in the books nor is it supposed to be.

Edited by Orphalesion

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2 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Then last episode she actively and deliberately murdered hundreds of thousands of innocents (went to great lengths and harmed her goals to murder them) and made herself worse than literally every other person that has appeared on the show.

She saw it as a deed for greater good, we won't see it that way, nor anyone else in Westeros. She probably thinks she'll rule better than anyone else once the IT is secured & won't be taken away from her soon as they'll fear her, 

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3 hours ago, Quillon said:

Alright, I thought short and easy on this and I think Dany didn't snapped whilst the bells rang. If she snapped at all it was when Missandei got executed or in between the time till Jon's arrival, She contemplated alone in grief and arrived at two choices; ruling through fear(as she told Jon) and ruling with Jon as her consort. She only indulged herself one last attempt at Jon knowing the outcome. With all the losses and betrayals she suffered she thought of herself alone and she was determined that she won't be able to keep the IT when she got it so she decided for a show of force and to make an example of KL even before the battle. It would have been easier if they didn't surrender so the bells came as a shock, at that moment she could just accept their surrender and hoped for the best but she believed if there was any chance of her keeping the throne it would be through fear. And we saw her face when she made the decision...

Yes, I think the beheading of Missandei was the last straw for her.  From that point on, she was determined on revenge. You only had to see the fury and grief on her face, to know that something horrible was coming the way of Kings Landing in the next episode.

I think she made it very clear, when she was sitting on the Throne at Dragonstone, talking to Tyrion and Jon, that she did not consider the inhabitants of Kings Landing to be innocent.   I see her nod to Grey Worm not as "Tyrion is right" but as "You know what you've got to do." 

I do think, at as the bells rang out, she was considering being merciful, and then she decided "Fuck them." 

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2 hours ago, Quillon said:

She saw it as a deed for greater good

Yeah....no, I don't think at that point she had any more motivation than "waaaaaaaaaaaaargh! Kill! Die!"

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I certainly have had my issues with the show since they had to make up their own material when they no longer had the books to go off of, I mean some things have just been handled so poorly. In regards to this whole Daenerys fiasco I must say though... I feel like they did a decent enough job.

The evidence of her being a bit of a nutter has been present for a while now. She wanted to burn Hizdahr Zo Loraq alive with no evidence and it later turned out he was innocent. Even when she executes guilty people she either goes to a crazy extreme like crucifying them or never shows that much inner conflict. Contrast her executions with characters like Ned or Jon. Yeah, Ned and Jon have executed people, but you get the sense they aren't too keen about it.

Then of course we've had some pretty heavy handed foreshadowing this season which I won't go through. Simpy put I think what happened made sense and what I believe is what they were conveying is this:

 

When Daenerys conquered Yunkai or Meereen she was met with overwhelming praise. What made her snap in Kings Landing is the fact that no one was cheering. She isn't a saviour. No one wants her. She knows how awful Cersei is, Tyrion has told her. Despite that the people are scared of Daenerys and seemingly have no issue with Cersei. So she punishes the people for not appreciating her.

Her dialogue about fighting the dead shows how warped she is. She makes comments like "fighting his war" to Sansa. She doesn't view defeating the army of dead who want the death of all living creatures as her battle. That is insane. She wants to be thanked for helping them, but is in her interest to help.

 

I've had a lot of issues with the show, but I really feel like this is one situation where D&D have done an ok job.

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So do you also consider Tywin to be crazy?  He actually had a well established history of killing commoners from season 1.  He ordered the Mountain to go rape and pillage and enslave the people in the River Lands.  He planned the Red Wedding.  He disowned his sons.  He slept with his son's whore, while forbidding him from associating with whores.  He condemned Tyrion to death.   But I haven't seen any arguments that this means he was crazy.

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18 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

So do you also consider Tywin to be crazy?  He actually had a well established history of killing commoners from season 1.  He ordered the Mountain to go rape and pillage and enslave the people in the River Lands.  He planned the Red Wedding.  He disowned his sons.  He slept with his son's whore, while forbidding him from associating with whores.  He condemned Tyrion to death.   But I haven't seen any arguments that this means he was crazy.

So you only read the thread's title? Maybe I ought to change it. To repeat myself: She's merciless to her enemies, too comfortable killing them by the score, she doesn't flinch at the sight of burning men and this side of her only helped with the route she took after the bells, this wasn't the reason for it. At least its what I think.

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Tywin also didn't flinch when killing his enemies or ordering the rape, pillage and enslavement of the people from the River Lands.  But nobody thought he was ready to snap any minute on a bad day. 

One of Dany's primary motivations since season 1 has been protecting the innocent, freeing the slaves, trying to be a good ruler.  She locked her dragons up for months for accidentally killing one child when hunting, but now she is actively trying to kill kids...  Only insanity explains flipping 180 from her views and attitudes from the first 7 seasons.  It's a story line that could work if it was written better, but doesn't work for me the way it was presented.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Tywin also didn't flinch when killing his enemies or ordering the rape, pillage and enslavement of the people from the River Lands.  But nobody thought he was ready to snap any minute on a bad day. 

One of Dany's primary motivations since season 1 has been protecting the innocent, freeing the slaves, trying to be a good ruler.  She locked her dragons up for months for accidentally killing one child when hunting, but now she is actively trying to kill kids...  Only insanity explains flipping 180 from her views and attitudes from the first 7 seasons.  It's a story line that could work if it was written better, but doesn't work for me the way it was presented.

Both decisions are an overreaction, an emotional reaction and show poor judgment. 

Locking up her dragons was in fact, insane, since they were and still are the primary source of her power, without them, she's Khal Drogo's widow, nothing more.  It was, in fact, one of her worst, most ill conceived, stupid moves of the series.  

But, I agree, her turn dark it was poorly set up and grounded, too rushed.

Edited by Cas Stark

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7 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Tywin also didn't flinch when killing his enemies or ordering the rape, pillage and enslavement of the people from the River Lands.  But nobody thought he was ready to snap any minute on a bad day. 

One of Dany's primary motivations since season 1 has been protecting the innocent, freeing the slaves, trying to be a good ruler.  She locked her dragons up for months for accidentally killing one child when hunting, but now she is actively trying to kill kids...  Only insanity explains flipping 180 from her views and attitudes from the first 7 seasons.  It's a story line that could work if it was written better, but doesn't work for me the way it was presented.

Tywin, at one point, or so we hear, was interested in ruling the realm justly and did an excellent job of it. He reached his own breaking point and decided to use other methods. I've said this in another thread, but I don't think it's about insanity with Dany or Tywin; it's about making the decision to rule exclusively by fear. Others in Westeros will look at her and see that she's mad, because they're used to mad Targaryens; but Varys' summary of her as a tyrant who can justify anything by citing the greater good seems more accurate to me, and what they seem to have shown in the episode.  

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Well I'm now in the denial phase so here I go. Dany did what Jamie warned Cersei would happen if they betrayed the pact to send the Crown Land forces to the North. Her punishing the people of Kings landing is just what Tywin Lannister would of done. What he did do to House Tarbeck and House Reyne. Is mad queen a misdirection? How can Jon killing Dany be a dream of spring?

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