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Quillon

Daenerys has always been a killer

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8 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Tywin also didn't flinch when killing his enemies or ordering the rape, pillage and enslavement of the people from the River Lands.  But nobody thought he was ready to snap any minute on a bad day.

Have you read what I wrote?

24 minutes ago, Quillon said:

So you only read the thread's title? Maybe I ought to change it. To repeat myself: She's merciless to her enemies, too comfortable killing them by the score, she doesn't flinch at the sight of burning men and this side of her only helped with the route she took after the bells, this wasn't the reason for it. At least its what I think.

Tywin is cruel yes, he has his mad dogs for his dirtiest works. I can't compare Tywin to Dany cos Tywin never burned people around him and just stared with pride. Maybe he's just as merciless as Dany. Hours ago I read a Tyrion chapter where it is said, something like "Tywin was never the same man after Joanna died, she took his best parts with her." But mercilessness =/= craziness, which you act like I claimed it is so.

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On 5/13/2019 at 8:11 PM, The Sunland Lord said:

Robert, Ned, Robb Stark, Jon Snow, Brienne were/are killers, this is the society these people live in, they have to do it, I mean you can say it's an obligation to kill.

What Daenerys is, is a mass murderer and war criminal. Now in the same basket with Aerys, Tywin, Roose, Ramsay, Euron, etc.

 

Neither Tywin nor Roose were mass murders nor war criminals.  Why do you consider them so?

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18 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Same for me. We had to expect fire and blood, violence and ruthlessness all the time. She would have acted so if not for her advisers.

Also the same for me.  Her advisers and confidants kept her worst impulses in check.

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On 5/14/2019 at 6:02 AM, M.Alhazred said:

Ultimately Cersi brought this on all of them when she killed Missandei and one of the dragons that was it.KL and everyone in it were dead.A bit off topic: Why did she stay in the RK when Lannister support would be strongest at Lannisport? Or did she not think they would make it back south?

Actually Casterly Rock would the strongest place for Cersei.  If I recall, it can just shrug off dragon attacks.

Of course, that passage into the sewers that Tyrion made has to be patched up.  :)

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Neither Tywin nor Roose were mass murders nor war criminals.  Why do you consider them so?

The Reynes, the Tarbecks, Elia of Dorne, and Robb and Catelyn Stark and their followers might disagree.

Edited by SeanF

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5 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Neither Tywin nor Roose were mass murders nor war criminals.  Why do you consider them so?

The Red Wedding is a war crime and a mass murder. Tywin gave the orders and Roose is a perpetrator.

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3 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

Tywin gave the orders

Ok but don't insist on it too much! or make sure he's dead when he goes down, my lord of sunspearland.

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16 hours ago, Quillon said:

Have you read what I wrote?

Tywin is cruel yes, he has his mad dogs for his dirtiest works. I can't compare Tywin to Dany cos Tywin never burned people around him and just stared with pride. Maybe he's just as merciless as Dany. Hours ago I read a Tyrion chapter where it is said, something like "Tywin was never the same man after Joanna died, she took his best parts with her." But mercilessness =/= craziness, which you act like I claimed it is so.

Even though I disagree completely with the way the show set it up, Dany being crazy is the only logical explanation to her burning innocents when that has been the exact opposite of her behavior towards innocents for the first 7 seasons.  It's pretty obvious that the show writers want us to believe she went crazy.  The entire Varys storyline this season has been focused on fears she is going mad.  It's just that Varys really had no reason to think she was any more crazy than when he first joined her.  The show writers made Varys insist she was going mad because that's where they want the plot to go, but she had no symptoms of insanity prior to burning King's Landing down to support his fears.  Then he turns out to be right, and the writers want us to believe that we all should have seen it coming...

I also disagree with the idea that Dany lacks empathy.  She kills the masters because of her empathy for the children they killed.  She locks up her dragons because of the empathy towards the father who lost his child.  She frees the slaves, she doesn't make them her own slaves.  Ending slavery is a major priority for her that has nothing to do with her goal of retaking the Iron Throne.  She thinks she is helping the witch when she stops her from being raped and spared her life, even though she ends up killing Drogo.  She mourns all of her friends deaths.  There are plenty of examples of her showing empathy.  In comparison, Joffrey, the Mountain, and Ramsay are good examples of characters with no empathy.

 Not having empathy for her enemies is something she shares with virtually every character in the show.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Even though I disagree completely with the way the show set it up, Dany being crazy is the only logical explanation to her burning innocents when that has been the exact opposite of her behavior towards innocents for the first 7 seasons.  It's pretty obvious that the show writers want us to believe she went crazy.  The entire Varys storyline this season has been focused on fears she is going mad.  It's just that Varys really had no reason to think she was any more crazy than when he first joined her.  The show writers made Varys insist she was going mad because that's where they want the plot to go, but she had no symptoms of insanity prior to burning King's Landing down to support his fears.  Then he turns out to be right, and the writers want us to believe that we all should have seen it coming...

I also disagree with the idea that Dany lacks empathy.  She kills the masters because of her empathy for the children they killed.  She locks up her dragons because of the empathy towards the father who lost his child.  She frees the slaves, she doesn't make them her own slaves.  Ending slavery is a major priority for her that has nothing to do with her goal of retaking the Iron Throne.  She thinks she is helping the witch when she stops her from being raped and spared her life, even though she ends up killing Drogo.  She mourns all of her friends deaths.  There are plenty of examples of her showing empathy.  In comparison, Joffrey, the Mountain, and Ramsay are good examples of characters with no empathy.

 Not having empathy for her enemies is something she shares with virtually every character in the show.  

 

Except for Robb, Ned, Bobby B, Jon Snow....who all showed empathy for their enemies, and even regret at the deaths of some enemies, as well as mercy to them. 

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3 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Even though I disagree completely with the way the show set it up, Dany being crazy is the only logical explanation to her burning innocents when that has been the exact opposite of her behavior towards innocents for the first 7 seasons.  It's pretty obvious that the show writers want us to believe she went crazy.  The entire Varys storyline this season has been focused on fears she is going mad.  It's just that Varys really had no reason to think she was any more crazy than when he first joined her.  The show writers made Varys insist she was going mad because that's where they want the plot to go, but she had no symptoms of insanity prior to burning King's Landing down to support his fears.  Then he turns out to be right, and the writers want us to believe that we all should have seen it coming...I also disagree with the idea that Dany lacks empathy.  She kills the masters because of her empathy for the children they killed.

 

But Varys is the best authority on it. He's seen it all happen before. Everyone should have believed him.

 

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Lets not act like Dany never showed any mercy to any enemies.  Yes some characters are more merciful than others, but that doesn't mean that they never killed enemies with out regrets either.

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3 minutes ago, Daske said:

But Varys is the best authority on it. He's seen it all happen before. Everyone should have believed him.

 

Why?  What had she done to make him think she was going mad that was any different from her behavior when he decided she was the ruler he wanted on the Iron Throne?

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1 minute ago, Tadco26 said:

Why?  What had she done to make him think she was going mad that was any different from her behavior when he decided she was the ruler he wanted on the Iron Throne? 

Just saying, in the absence of trained therapists, he would be the best placed person to pick up on it. And he was right!

Personally I think the clues were there in the show that could push her over the edge (e.g. after all she has been though, Jon's claim and he probably being a better/loved ruler), but regardless, if you (as Varys) believe there was a 50% chance (coin) that she might turn bonkers you are going to be on the lookout for that kind of stuff and worried about it happening. I guess originally he thought that a 50% chance was better than the alternatives.

 

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In the show's "previously on" they had the following dialogue over Dany's face:

- Varys saying Jon has the better claim

- Cersei saying half the Targaryens went mad

- Barristan saying the mad king killed his enemies thinking he gave them justice

- Tyrion saying children are not their fathers

- Olenna saying "be a dragon"

- Jorah saying she has a gentle heart 

- Aemon saying a Targaryen alone is a terrible thing

- Viserys saying "you don't want to wake the dragon, do you?"

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19 hours ago, Tadco26 said:

So do you also consider Tywin to be crazy?  He actually had a well established history of killing commoners from season 1.  He ordered the Mountain to go rape and pillage and enslave the people in the River Lands.  He planned the Red Wedding.  He disowned his sons.  He slept with his son's whore, while forbidding him from associating with whores.  He condemned Tyrion to death.   But I haven't seen any arguments that this means he was crazy.

The difference between Tywin and Danny is the nature of the weapons at their disposal, not the lengths they would go to, to get what they want.

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37 minutes ago, Daske said:

Just saying, in the absence of trained therapists, he would be the best placed person to pick up on it. And he was right!

Personally I think the clues were there in the show that could push her over the edge (e.g. after all she has been though, Jon's claim and he probably being a better/loved ruler), but regardless, if you (as Varys) believe there was a 50% chance (coin) that she might turn bonkers you are going to be on the lookout for that kind of stuff and worried about it happening. I guess originally he thought that a 50% chance was better than the alternatives.

 

By that logic there is also a 50% chance Jon could go bonkers.

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20 minutes ago, Larger than Average Finger said:

The difference between Tywin and Danny is the nature of the weapons at their disposal, not the lengths they would go to, to get what they want.

Also the goal. Tywin wanted to take the King's Landing and present it gift wrapped to Robert to get him to marry Cersei. This means that sacked or not, the city astill has to stand (and it is implied the sack did not last that long as Ned's Northerners arrived pretty soon). Tywin did not want to send a message to all Westeros to fear him (I mean people already feared the Lannisters after the whole Castamere affair :)).

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23 hours ago, SeanF said:

The Reynes, the Tarbecks, Elia of Dorne, and Robb and Catelyn Stark and their followers might disagree.

The Reynes and Tarbeck don't count.  They were disloyal bannermen of House Lannister.  House Lannister had the right of pit and gallows in the Westerlands.  What was done to the Reynes and Tarbeks was excessive, but would have had the backing of law and would thus not be a crime.

Elia maybe.  Her children?  No.  Those were necessary to ensure the stability of New Regime.  I doubt that Tywin told Clegane and Lorch (?) to rape Elia, but once done, he had to protect his bannermen.

Assassination at a wedding isn't necessarily a 'war crime'.   But it did violate Guest Rights.  In Westeros, and especially the North, that may just be worse.  Besides, Tywin didn't do the assassinations - Walder Frey did.

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Posted (edited)
19 hours ago, The Sunland Lord said:

The Red Wedding is a war crime and a mass murder. Tywin gave the orders and Roose is a perpetrator.

Disagree.  The Red Wedding is not a war crime nor mass murder.  It is the assassination of an enemy commander and his 'generals'.  Most of those killed were combatants.  Roose betrayed his liege lord.  That is not a 'war crime'.   Is it treason?  yes.

Of larger concern to Westeros is that the the Freys violated Guest Rights for their part in the Red Wedding.

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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