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Daenerys has always been a killer

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Just now, Jaenara Belarys said:

You're ignoring what said kid did.......

No.

You are ignoring what my post was about. I don't want us to go in circles, so I'm out.

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9 hours ago, Jaenara Belarys said:

@TheLastWolf won't like that. He seems to dislike Dany worshipers

Yep. Any form of worship. By definition it's evil. Irrational. Leads to ideologues, zealots, bigots, chauvinists et al

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First she burned the slavers
and I did not speak up because I am not a slaver

Then she burned the masters of Yunkai
and I did not speak up because I am not a wise master

Then roasted the Kahl's
and I did not speak up because I am not a Kahl

Then she came for the Lannisters
and I did not speak up because I am not a Lannister. 

And when Daenerys started burning all the good men
No evil man was left to speak up for them. 

That's how the poem goes right?

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Daemon of the Blacks said:

That's how the poem goes right?

lmao, yes. 

15 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

Yep. Any form of worship. By definition it's evil. Irrational. Leads to ideologues, zealots, bigots, chauvinists et al

Welp, iz a good thing you can't change the First Amendment. Because it appears you'd outlaw religion. 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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On 5/18/2021 at 10:27 PM, Jaenara Belarys said:

Welp, iz a good thing you can't change the First Amendment. Because it appears you'd outlaw religion. 

NO NO NOOOO

How the hell can we keep population under control!!? 

Religious fanatics killing each other. What could be better :devil: :P

 

There are million more clips 

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On 5/17/2021 at 7:32 AM, Mindwalker said:

So Sansa is cleary a dangerous madwoman, too. The way she looked while she was feeding Ramsay to the dogs... Strange that no-one bothered to kill her to save the North from her...

Right. To make this more consistent with the theme of Sansa as a dangerous madwoman, Book!Sansa should have stared in fascination as Joff strangled to death and belittled him. "He was no true lion, strangling cannot kill a lion." :rofl:And of course this couldn't just be an isolated incident. Sansa's default state would be to solve everything with violence, from here on out. 

No but for real, this was a D&D scene so the actors can "shine." It shouldn't stop your ability to see the book themes already in place. 

A Sansa vs. Dany juxtaposition exists in the books.

True empathy is helping your captors/enemies, like Sansa helped Lancel when he was wounded. Or people who don't worship her as a new leader, like Dontos.

Most of the time, when Dany helps someone, there is another component. She also gets power (a slave army), or she gets to assuage her own guilt (the price of the throne, staying in Meereen), or she expects them to be on her side (obligations). Dany's challenge is to have empathy for her enemies and help people without any other obligations. Sansa has shown she can do that. They are mainly foils, with a few similarities here in there.

We'll see how Jon reacts to killing the assassins. My guess is that he'll feel a weight, and won't enjoy it. In the show, he tells Sansa he hanged a boy as young as Bran. He acted that scene like he was disgusted and said he was done killing. Later, he's questioning his actions even when he kills a mass murderer and is still unsure if it's the right thing. Also a juxtaposition to Dany. In the books, even when she was disturbed by the people she crucified, she whisks it away!

If Dany had killed Jon she'd be like "he was no true dragon." And the bloodthirsty people would have cheered.  Those people don't want fiction that challenges their base emotions, they just want blood. 

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Posted (edited)
16 hours ago, TheLastWolf said:

NO NO NOOOO

How the hell can we keep population under control!!? 

Religious fanatics killing each other. What could be better :devil: :P

LMAO :rofl::agree::bowdown:. Well, I suppose that's one way. 

Edited by Jaenara Belarys

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Posted (edited)
On 5/21/2021 at 3:19 PM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Right. To make this more consistent with the theme of Sansa as a dangerous madwoman, Book!Sansa should have stared in fascination as Joff strangled to death and belittled him. "He was no true lion, strangling cannot kill a lion." :rofl:And of course this couldn't just be an isolated incident. Sansa's default state would be to solve everything with violence, from here on out. 

No but for real, this was a D&D scene so the actors can "shine." It shouldn't stop your ability to see the book themes already in place. 

A Sansa vs. Dany juxtaposition exists in the books.

True empathy is helping your captors/enemies, like Sansa helped Lancel when he was wounded. Or people who don't worship her as a new leader, like Dontos.

Most of the time, when Dany helps someone, there is another component. She also gets power (a slave army), or she gets to assuage her own guilt (the price of the throne, staying in Meereen), or she expects them to be on her side (obligations). Dany's challenge is to have empathy for her enemies and help people without any other obligations. Sansa has shown she can do that. They are mainly foils, with a few similarities here in there.

We'll see how Jon reacts to killing the assassins. My guess is that he'll feel a weight, and won't enjoy it. In the show, he tells Sansa he hanged a boy as young as Bran. He acted that scene like he was disgusted and said he was done killing. Later, he's questioning his actions even when he kills a mass murderer and is still unsure if it's the right thing. Also a juxtaposition to Dany. In the books, even when she was disturbed by the people she crucified, she whisks it away!

If Dany had killed Jon she'd be like "he was no true dragon." And the bloodthirsty people would have cheered.  Those people don't want fiction that challenges their base emotions, they just want blood. 

In the books, Tyrion, Danerys, Jon, Bran, Arya are extraordinary, for good or ill.  Sansa is the one, out of the main protagonists, who is "ordinary" for want of a better term. Lady was killed early on, stunting Sansa's ability to be a warg.

So, I think Sansa acts as most of us would act in her situation.  She can be stupid, she can be shrewd, she can be kind and empathetic.  She can also be quite selfish.  She does try to help people, but she is corruptible, by Cersei and Littlefinger. She is certainly not worse than I would be, in her position, probably better, but I'm not convinced that she is a true heroine, either

 

Edited by SeanF

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Posted (edited)
On 5/18/2021 at 3:48 PM, Daemon of the Blacks said:

First she burned the slavers
and I did not speak up because I am not a slaver

Then she burned the masters of Yunkai
and I did not speak up because I am not a wise master

Then roasted the Kahl's
and I did not speak up because I am not a Kahl

Then she came for the Lannisters
and I did not speak up because I am not a Lannister. 

And when Daenerys started burning all the good men
No evil man was left to speak up for them. 

That's how the poem goes right?

Quote

 

 

 

I think they may have misunderstood Niemoller.

Edited by SeanF

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I did not think Dany turned dark. She was always dark. Dreamers (Bran is one of course) always make the worst rulers. Just look at Pol Pot killing half his people. In the 1950's Venezuela had the 5th largest per capita GNP in the entire world. Now thanks to the dreamers running that nation, people at times invaded zoos just to find food.

The Scandinavian nations are not run by dreamers. Their brand of socialism works because they start out with having one of the lowest business taxes in the Western world, and capitalism runs the marketplace. But there was and still is a heavy dose socialistic philosophy of how the incomes generated are then divided. Very practical, instead of a pipe dream of cooperation in the production of goods and services. When the economy and order inevitably falls apart in dreamer led governments inevitably fall apart, the leaders become desperate and vicious. Witness the French revolution.

My ideal heroine in GOT TV series is the feminist/realist Lyanna Mormont. “I may be small. I may be a girl, but I won’t be knitting by the fire while I have men fight for me." Late in the series with the 'good guys' lined up, I noticed that she is the person standing immediately at Bran Stark's side. They look like a couple, that's for sure. I hope in the book they get married. She has what it takes to place a very heavy dose of realism and practicality on top of Bran Stark's dreaming of how Westeros should actually be run.

Yep, not Dany, but Lyanna is my idea of a heroine worth following in the TV series. Sixty-Two! Love it!

 

 

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, Fielder said:

I did not think Dany turned dark. She was always dark. Dreamers (Bran is one of course) always make the worst rulers. Just look at Pol Pot killing half his people. In the 1950's Venezuela had the 5th largest per capita GNP in the entire world. Now thanks to the dreamers running that nation, people at times invaded zoos just to find food.

The Scandinavian nations are not run by dreamers. Their brand of socialism works because they start out with having one of the lowest business taxes in the Western world, and capitalism runs the marketplace. But there was and still is a heavy dose socialistic philosophy of how the incomes generated are then divided. Very practical, instead of a pipe dream of cooperation in the production of goods and services. When the economy and order inevitably falls apart in dreamer led governments inevitably fall apart, the leaders become desperate and vicious. Witness the French revolution.

My ideal heroine in GOT TV series is the feminist/realist Lyanna Mormont. “I may be small. I may be a girl, but I won’t be knitting by the fire while I have men fight for me." Late in the series with the 'good guys' lined up, I noticed that she is the person standing immediately at Bran Stark's side. They look like a couple, that's for sure. I hope in the book they get married. She has what it takes to place a very heavy dose of realism and practicality on top of Bran Stark's dreaming of how Westeros should actually be run.

Yep, not Dany, but Lyanna is my idea of a heroine worth following in the TV series. Sixty-Two! Love it!

 

 

I don't think I'd view Pol Pot or Chavez as dreamers.  (As it happens, Martin has said that the "dreamers" are the people he admires most.) .  Without the  dreamers, we'd have avoided some unpleasant revolutions, but at the same time, we'd never have had the Enlightenment, democracy, or the scientific, agricultural, and Industrial Revolutions.  Life would be nasty, solitary, brutish and short for most. 

We need both the dreamers, and the calculating sceptics, who critique their ideas.

Edited by SeanF

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On 5/14/2021 at 2:33 PM, Gala said:

Oh, come on! It has always stared (even screamed) you in the face! Both in the books and in the series. She was going this road, always. You choose to justify your favourite character with "bad writing" and "insulting the viewers' intelligence", it is understandable. For example, I always defend Ned. They say he is stupid and naive, and of course he is, but I still defend him. Dany is ignorant both in the books and in the series sometimes (but in the series she is less ignorant). She sympathized the slaves because she was one herself (well, sort of, at least). In Essos she is a liberator. In Westeros she is a conqueror. Do you know the difference? And yes, Tyrion is telling the obvious truth: her journey is "the rise to power of an evil tyrant", while she was fighting the bad guys and liberating people (If we set aside what has happened to those liberated cities after her liberation, of course) we cheered, we all did (I cheered, too, be no mistaken), but when she came to conquer...we finally see what she really is. I really laughed aloud when she was giving the speech about "breaking the wheel" back then in earlier seasons when she was still a liberator, because even when she was giving it she was already a part of that wheel. Do you know how I knew that? It all is in our history...have you ever heard of French revolution or Russian revolution of 1917?! Ring any bells? You cannot defeat tyranny when you are a tyrant yourself. Since my country suffered Russian revolution and 70ty years of idiotic ruling of those who came after, I actually know what I am talking about. And it is exactly how Tyrion said: we cheered and she grew more powerful (first the Unsullied, then the Dothraki horde...dragons are another thing, they are a miracle after all, nevertheless, they are the most powerful thing in that world) and more sure that she is right. Mix that with unstable state of mind (loss, grief, betrayals, absence of love and another pretender, who is actually a better person than she is and she knows that because she loves that person exactly because of what he is - a better man, honourable and good to the bone) and history of madness in her genes, we got the combo. And yes this is a story of how tyrants come to power! It happens exactly like that, when the masses are cheering and with rivers of blood pouring.

Ending slavery through violence is bad because slavers would what give up their power and human livestock peacefully? Glad you weren't around during the Civil War. 

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On 5/15/2021 at 12:50 PM, Daemon of the Blacks said:

Yeah sure. Danny has always been a killer and easily triggered into a rage. Her shouting how she's going to burn Qarth for not helping her comes to mind.

But this rage was always aimed at almost cartoonishly evil men or at least those who at least were unpleasant towards her. So even if we take Daenerys behavior towards the slavers and the Qarth nobles at its worst then its still not even remotely close to her burning civilians for fun after she's already won the battle. 

And that's where the writing fails. You want to make Dany into Hitler with dragons, sure, go ahead, but lets see the decent. Slowly and methodically; they had 8 seasons to do it! Instead they gave her slavers and rapist slaving khals to deal with and guess what? The audience cheered because buying and selling human beings and forcing physical and sexual labor out them on pain of death is EVIL. Its one of the most evil things humanity has ever come up with, and Dany was morally right to violently put an end to it. I would argue she didn't go far enough.  Also Dany's actions are not happening in a vacuum, almost every major character has committed violence, usually in service of themselves or their families, because that is the world they live in. Dany is unusual because she's the only one using her power against the powerful to protect the powerless. 

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On 5/21/2021 at 10:19 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

True empathy is helping your captors/enemies, like Sansa helped Lancel when he was wounded. Or people who don't worship her as a new leader, like Dontos

Are we talking about the same Sansa who enjoyed watching Ramsey being eaten alive by his own hounds? 

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Posted (edited)
On 6/4/2021 at 6:03 AM, Sotan said:

Are we talking about the same Sansa who enjoyed watching Ramsey being eaten alive by his own hounds? 

Sansa deserves credit for saving the life of Ser Dontos, and for helping Lancel, but neither had seriously wronged her.  

She tried to talk Joffrey into getting himself killed, and disposed of Ramsay in a most creative fashion, and don't get me wrong, I think she was quite jusified in both cases.  It's both natural and human for her to have acted as she did.

Edited by SeanF

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