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Books Stans did not like the show because it did not mirror the books, now they offer a different reason for not liking it.   Books Stans will not like the show regardless.

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16 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

Exactly. Like I said, I'm trying to get over my disappointment.

hahaha fair enough!

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16 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Probably not. What appears to be their very first joint post announces who they are and their excitement for landing the deal.

My, my, my...footprints in the sands of time. How foolish were they, how foolish was I?

I think we all fell for it

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11 hours ago, Hoo said:

Books Stans did not like the show because it did not mirror the books, now they offer a different reason for not liking it.   Books Stans will not like the show regardless.

I don't know what this 'Stans' neologism means, but this is generalising far too much. Many/most fans who had read the books enjoyed the first TV series very much - where the characters and storylines adhered to the quality of the books. It was disappointing to see many important characters and plotlines such as Dornish reduced or omitted but we understood the limitations of TV. The TV show, therefore, did not mirror the books, but it did reflect the quality of them and that was good enough for us. Since it went past the books and depended on D&D's screenwriting talents the quality took a dive, and when D&D made the decision to wrap up seasons 7 and 8 in super-quick time the stories no longer made much sense. Where's the controversy in that?

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I think the problem is they are TV guys interpreting a book story so they focus more on the visual aspects, action, etc as opposed to the story itself.

That’s why you get Jon and company many times just making stupid faces and such when they should actually be communicating. The story suffers but you get 15 minutes of Aria trying to survive medieval 9-11 as opposed to using that time just move the story along in a coherent fashion.

The episodes where there isn’t much action, they dedicate to stupid banter and dialog that does nothing to further the story in any meaningful way. Those guys are not writers. At least not good ones evidently...

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3 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Since it went past the books and depended on D&D's screenwriting talents the quality took a dive, and when D&D made the decision to wrap up seasons 7 and 8 in super-quick time the stories no longer made much sense. Where's the controversy in that?

I agree that the first seasons had so much more quality than the last one's. Not only because of GRRM the much better author, but also because the show itself was more daring, more provocative. The turned more mainstream, probably primarily for economic reasons, not just because they cannot write. But yes, altogether the complexity and depth of GRRM's creativity and talent were probably decisive for S1-4 being so much better.

However, I contradict you for the "the stories no longer make sense". That's simply not true.

Yes, the storyline is rushed, they tell instead of show, there should have been more dialogues, more emotions, more nice scenes of development. Yes, I agree. They should have made ten episodes again. It's such a pity.

But the story itself still makes sense. Exactly as it would have with ten episodes. I would have enjoyed it more with more details and dialogues. But the sense of the story is not different.

Daenerys turning mad was built up well. It would have happened anyway. Yes, they could have built it up even slower and with more details. Agreed. But that doesn't change the story. Whoever paid attention, expected it anyway. 

You are right if you argue about the quality of the show but not if you argue about the story itself. The story is still GRRM's and only fools think it will end different in the books.

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7 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

The episodes where there isn’t much action, they dedicate to stupid banter and dialog that does nothing to further the story in any meaningful way. Those guys are not writers. At least not good ones evidently...

E2 had a lot of fine dialogues and emotions. Jaime's trial, Brienne's knighhood, Arya and The Hound, Sansa and Theon.

The show is simply to rushed and they should have taken ten episodes to wrap it up. It's not sheer incompetence, it's about not taking enough time.

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10 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

ou are right if you argue about the quality of the show but not if you argue about the story itself. The story is still GRRM's and only fools think it will end different in the books.

You know what I think because I posted that vox article earlier. I'm saying the story is absolutely genius but it's ruined in the incompetent hands of D&D.

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2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

I'm saying the story is absolutely genius but it's ruined in the incompetent hands of D&D.

OK, we agree on the story to be genius at least.

I see the "too rushed" issue as well, but I don't feel the story to be ruined at all. It's still a nice story.

 

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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

OK, we agree on the story to be genius at least.

I see the "too rushed" issue as well, but I don't feel the story to be ruined at all. It's still a nice story.

 

I have full confidence that when we get our hands on the books (and I know that's a heck of a leap of faith) that we will be fully satisfied. What we've got in S07-S08 is more like a set of instagram photos that we have to join together and guess what happens in between. Some of us can work out what's in the gaps, but I can understand many viewers who struggle. 

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Posted (edited)
29 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

I agree that the first seasons had so much more quality than the last one's. Not only because of GRRM the much better author, but also because the show itself was more daring, more provocative. The turned more mainstream, probably primarily for economic reasons, not just because they cannot write. But yes, altogether the complexity and depth of GRRM's creativity and talent were probably decisive for S1-4 being so much better.

However, I contradict you for the "the stories no longer make sense". That's simply not true.

Yes, the storyline is rushed, they tell instead of show, there should have been more dialogues, more emotions, more nice scenes of development. Yes, I agree. They should have made ten episodes again. It's such a pity.

But the story itself still makes sense. Exactly as it would have with ten episodes. I would have enjoyed it more with more details and dialogues. But the sense of the story is not different.

Daenerys turning mad was built up well. It would have happened anyway. Yes, they could have built it up even slower and with more details. Agreed. But that doesn't change the story. Whoever paid attention, expected it anyway. 

You are right if you argue about the quality of the show but not if you argue about the story itself. The story is still GRRM's and only fools think it will end different in the books.

1. What economical reasons?

2. Does the story make sense as it is now, yeah sure. I can follow it, I understand what the plot is doing. But I think I am one of those people who say, "the story doesn't make sense" I really should be saying, the character development and actions don't make sense. The books (and the show in the beginning and mid area) were character driven stories, not plot driven. This put a focus on character actions a lot more. We got used to these character focused actions and needed it to make sense, hence the plot will make sense. Somewhere along the way the show changed to being plot driven. Where the plot dictated what the characters do and where they go. Now this isn't a "bad" way to tell a story, it's just different, it's what a lot of (what I would argue lesser) shows do on TV nowadays. But there was a change in the way the story was told and if you were expecting steak and ended up with a tofu hotdog, you're going to be upset.

3. The endings may be the same (we have yet to see the ending of the show or the books) but if you have ever read a Stephen King book, the journey is as important as the destination. What made the first book so great wasn't that Ned Stark died. It was that all of Ned Stark's choices felt real, they felt like a genuine person making genuine decisions that are consistent with that character's mindset. It was just a bonus that those actions led to a realistic conclusion. If the first season was exactly the same but the last two Ned chapters he went on a murderous rampage and tried to kill everyone in king's landing for reasons, we would be upset.

Edited by btfu806

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Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2019 at 9:16 AM, GeorgeIAF said:

I agree that the writing in this season and the last is mediocre and they should haven went with 10 episodes each, but i’m more and more convinced that D&D are the scapegoats of the fans anger about the ending. 

The real target is GRRM and his ending (because the main plot points of the TV SHOW will be the same as in the books) is not well received by the fans. I wonder if he’ll decide to change the original ending to appease the fandom.

I think you nailed it. The low rating is not only due to poor writing. This issue started with season 5 and no episode goes down below 8.00. The last two episodes was a fiasco because of the ending too. We can defend the books, we can defend GRRM, he's a genius, the story will be different, more logic, with more branches on the tree, more coherent, more credible etc, etc,  but... the true is that show fans, and I don't doubt even some of his books  fans dont't like this end. They want the bittersweet, satisfying end that  has been promised. The short one (show) or the long one (books).

Edited by loverofcats

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Posted (edited)
53 minutes ago, loverofcats said:

I think you nailed it. The low rating is not only due to poor writing. This issue started with season 5 and no episode goes down below 8.00. The last two episodes was a fiasco because of the ending too. We can defend the books, we can defend GRRM, he's a genius, the story will be different, more logic, with more branches on the tree, more coherent, more credible etc, etc,  but... the true is that show fans, and I don't doubt even some of his books  fans dont't like this end. They want the bittersweet, satisfying end that  has been promised. The short one (show) or the long one (books).

Without snark: can you point me to the interview were "bittersweet" was promised?

I would say, as a rule, GRRM does very little "bittersweet". Every possible shade of grey, yes. Bittersweet not as much.

Satisfying, - I trust GRRM will know how to get there. People will be upset even if it's brilliantly executed. The Red Wedding caused an uproar when it came out, but it was deftly written, made thematic sense, and upped the stakes. Though of course I hated it, it was brilliantly executed and narratively consistent. I expect for the ending of the series to be both of those things as well. 

Edited by elle_by_the_sea

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, elle_by_the_sea said:

Without snark: can you point me to the interview were "bittersweet" was promised?

Sorry for double post

Edited by loverofcats

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Posted (edited)

@ House Cambodia and loverofcats: Thanks very much for the quote. I'll be honest, though, : after reading that, I can only think that GRRM and I vastly differ as to what "bittersweet" encompasses. If, for GRRM, his series up until this point has had a lot of bittersweet turns, then I say, yes, the ending will also have that same brand of bittersweet tone to it. I'd say his universe is utterly grim, and pretty unrelenting, so for me "grim" and "unrelenting" is what I'm expecting to the end of it. 

All am looking for is great execution, which I've gotten up until now.

Edited by elle_by_the_sea

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2 hours ago, Kajjo said:

E2 had a lot of fine dialogues and emotions. Jaime's trial, Brienne's knighhood, Arya and The Hound, Sansa and Theon.

The show is simply to rushed and they should have taken ten episodes to wrap it up. It's not sheer incompetence, it's about not taking enough time.

But it was their decision to blow the budget on an hour long battle in the dark that was unwatchable once post production was done with it. Had they spend 1/2 that money in a different way they could have had 2,3,4 more episodes to adequately explain the fall of Danny.

There is no doubt that a huge part of the problem is the nature of Pay Cable.  HBO does not make money when people watch an episode of GOT, they make money when people call Comcast/Direct TV etc. and subscribe so they can watch GOT.   AT some point They realized they had milked all the subscribers they would get from the show, and that 10 seasons was not going to get them any more than 8 would, so they cut back on the production run.  That's above D&D, and out of their control.

I find it hard to believe however, that the decision to shorten the 2 seasons was not with D&D.

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Its not soley on D&D there are people high in rankings in HBO that tailor to what fans want to see. George martin even said so himself. 

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3 minutes ago, D2procon said:

Its not soley on D&D there are people high in rankings in HBO that tailor to what fans want to see. George martin even said so himself. 

HBO offered D&D 10 seasons each with 10 episodes and as much CGI money as they would need.

What did D&D say?

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