Unpopular opinion

[BlackLightning]

And then there is all of the time-wasting sexposition and that godawful bad pussy line

Did fans really want to see that? And if so, why stop?

[Hodor's Dragon]

Just now, Jabar of House Titan said:

HBO offered D&D 10 seasons each with 10 episodes and as much CGI money as they would need.

What did D&D say?

I think the problem is not with how many episodes there were, I think the problem is with the chief plotters' inability to devise a believable plot in which each character acts logically, consistently with his or her prior development, and with a visible and believable motivation for the action undertaken. Apply that test to the major plot points of seasons 6-8 and I think you'll find that almost all of them flunk.

More seasons wouldn't fix that, it would just give us more variations on Thormund's sex life, Bronn swaggering in a bar, Arya throwing off one-liners over her latest body, and the like. Maybe you'd get 2 or 3 more of the numerous outstanding major questions answered, but I think that's about the best you could hope for.

[btfu806]

2 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

I think the problem is not with how many episodes there were, I think the problem is with the chief plotters' inability to devise a believable plot in which each character acts logically, consistently with his or her prior development, and with a visible and believable motivation for the action undertaken. Apply that test to the major plot points of seasons 6-8 and I think you'll find that almost all of them flunk. 

More seasons wouldn't fix that, it would just give us more variations on Thormund's sex life, Bronn swaggering in a bar, Arya throwing off one-liners over her latest body, and the like. Maybe you'd get 2 or 3 more of the numerous outstanding major questions answered, but I think that's about the best you could hope for.

And dick jokes. It was the only consistent writing D&D ever seemed to have each episode. Especially in Season 6. I think it was 7 episodes in a row with a dick joke.

[BlackLightning]

5 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

I think the problem is not with how many episodes there were, I think the problem is with the chief plotters' inability to devise a believable plot in which each character acts logically, consistently with his or her prior development, and with a visible and believable motivation for the action undertaken. Apply that test to the major plot points of seasons 6-8 and I think you'll find that almost all of them flunk.

More seasons wouldn't fix that, it would just give us more variations on Thormund's sex life, Bronn swaggering in a bar, Arya throwing off one-liners over her latest body, and the like. Maybe you'd get 2 or 3 more of the numerous outstanding major questions answered, but I think that's about the best you could hope for.

I'm sure if D&D said, "We need help. Let's use the budgeting necessary for 10 seasons and 10 episodes to hire a strong writing team," HBO would have obliged.

 

[Hodor's Dragon]

1 minute ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I'm sure if D&D said, "We need help. Let's use the budgeting necessary for 10 seasons and 10 episodes to hire a strong writing team," HBO would have obliged.

 

If only plotting/dialogue had been placed under someone else's supervision. Obviously the show-runners do many things very well.

[BlackLightning]

Just now, Hodor's Dragon said:

If only plotting/dialogue had been placed under someone else's supervision. Obviously the show-runners do many things very well.

Running a show into the ground is one of those things.

I'm telling you: if they had made the mistakes they made in this season in season 1 or 2, the show would have been cancelled. In fact, if I remember correctly, after the original first episode was shot, it was received so poorly that it almost was cancelled forever.

[Hodor's Dragon]

But the show has an excellent cast and has always been great at dramatic pacing, visual framing and cinematography, sets, costuming, and music. All that was excellent even back in season 1 and when they got more money they put it to good use irt everything technical.

Too bad they didn't know how to steer this beast they created.

[D2procon]

47 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

HBO offered D&D 10 seasons each with 10 episodes and as much CGI money as they would need.

What did D&D say?

I dont care if they did 15 episodes, youre missing the point, there are higher up in HBO executive offices that will want some adjustments to tailor to fan's expectations

[Ingelheim]

17 hours ago, ShadowKitteh said:

OH! Got it.  Apologies. I misunderstood. (I'm so blonde today I probably glow in the dark.)

Hahahaha don't worry, it's okay. Maybe I didn't expresss myself correctly back there.

What I mean is that Martin is somehow unable to finish the series, at least properly. That's what I feel. AFFC and ADWD are  good books but the pacing of the storyline is all over the place, and he's taken almost 20 years since ASOS to pusblish those two; the first three just took him 4 years. 

There's no sign we are getting Winds this year, and I'm pretty sure he won't release it on 2020 either. He simply doesn't know how to finish the series. And that's his fault, and just his.

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

On 5/13/2019 at 2:16 AM, GeorgeIAF said:

I agree that the writing in this season and the last is mediocre and they should haven went with 10 episodes each, but i’m more and more convinced that D&D are the scapegoats of the fans anger about the ending. 

The real target is GRRM and his ending (because the main plot points of the TV SHOW will be the same as in the books) is not well received by the fans. I wonder if he’ll decide to change the original ending to appease the fandom.

Obviously there are a ton of other valid points to make, but I think this is fair.

And I think Martin may have cost him self sales by revealing the ending this way.  

I was dying to read the next two books.  I would have delivered my money to him personally.  But now?  

"Take your time George, let me get over this and then we can talk."  

[Nightwish]

19 minutes ago, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

Obviously there are a ton of other valid points to make, but I think this is fair.

And I think Martin may have cost him self sales by revealing the ending this way.  

I was dying to read the next two books.  I would have delivered my money to him personally.  But now?  

"Take your time George, let me get over this and then we can talk."  

I think there are different target audiences here:

the hardcore book fans who never liked the series so they will follow the books. 

The book and show followers who never actually cared if the end is revealed through the show because Martin had said that the main plot points will remain the same. 

The show followers who don’t care about the books and never intended to read them in the first place. 

Group A is a certainty, Group C never was and Group B is the one from where he will have loses I believe because they are dissapointed with all the treatment of the series, they are not hard core fans of the writer so they don’t have big tolerance neither patience with him and  don’t want to invest more time in the books as they did with the show. 

I don’t think he will change his ending to please. He should remain truthful to what he had wanted to write and if this brings him less sales, I doubt he will even care, he probably made so much money from the show, I don’t know if he will even bother finish them. 

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

6 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

I think there different target audiences here:

the hardcore book fans who never liked the series so they will follow the books. 

The book and show followers who never actually cared if the end is revealed through the show because Martin had said that the main plot points will remain the same. 

The show followers who don’t care about the books and never intended to read them in the first place. 

Group A is a certainty, Group C never was and Group B is the one from where he will have loses I believe because they are dissapointed with all the treatment of the series, they are not hard core fans of the writers so they don’t have big tolerance neither patience and really don’t want to invest more time in the books as they did with the show. 

I don’t think he will change his ending to please them. He should remain truthful to what he wanted to write and if this brings him less sales, I doubt he will care, he probably made so much money with from the show, I don’t know if he will even finish them. 

I am not sure you are getting my point.  I am a devoted book and show fan.  I accept the differences and I am not "spoiled" over the plot elements where the show has advance beyond what is written.  

I cannot tell you precisely how mow I have spent on hardback books to keep forever, audio books so I can listen on the way to work, paperback books to share with friends, books on kindle just in case and because you never know, every season on blu-ray, the early seasons on DVD bacuase I didn't know I would want blu-ray, and other assorted crap with direwolves and dragons.  

I am a die-hard.  Before last Sunday I would have told you that nothing short of my own premature death would keep me from finishing this series.  But "Daeniac-The Maniac" is a blow.  This is the end of the Khaleesi's journey?  Wow.    

George has always maintained the neither the show nor fans figuring out the end would influence his writing.  I agree with that.  I would hope not.  But if this is where it is going and this is how it ends, I am a little disgusted.  I guess I need time to process this idea before I can decide whether or not to finish the series.   

May if I had heard it from George first, in the way he plans to tell it I night feel differently.  I don't know.  My point is not "spoilery" in nature.  

It's more, "Daeny is blonde Hitler?  Fuck it, I'm out."

I cannot be the only one.

[Nightwish]

21 minutes ago, Imp Beyond the Wall said:

I am not sure you are getting my point.  I am a devoted book and show fan.  I accept the differences and I am not "spoiled" over the plot elements where the show has advance beyond what is written.  

I cannot tell you precisely how mow I have spent on hardback books to keep forever, audio books so I can listen on the way to work, paperback books to share with friends, books on kindle just in case and because you never know, every season on blu-ray, the early seasons on DVD bacuase I didn't know I would want blu-ray, and other assorted crap with direwolves and dragons.  

I am a die-hard.  Before last Sunday I would have told you that nothing short of my own premature death would keep me from finishing this series.  But "Daeniac-The Maniac" is a blow.  This is the end of the Khaleesi's journey?  Wow.    

George has always maintained the neither the show nor fans figuring out the end would influence his writing.  I agree with that.  I would hope not.  But if this is where it is going and this is how it ends, I am a little disgusted.  I guess I need time to process this idea before I can decide whether or not to finish the series.   

May if I had heard it from George first, in the way he plans to tell it I night feel differently.  I don't know.  My point is not "spoilery" in nature.  

It's more, "Daeny is blonde Hitler?  Fuck it, I'm out."

I cannot be the only one.

Of course I get your point. Isn't that I said before:

The book and show followers who never actually cared if the end is revealed through the show because Martin had said that the main plot points will remain the same. Group B is the one from where he will have loses I believe because they are dissapointed with all the treatment of the series,

And treatment of the series means a lot of things for a lot of readers: the treatment of the characters, the treatment of the story lines, the treatment of any meaning, treatment of the end.

Personally I am also a Dany fan and its very painful watching this. And the same as you, I don't want to read anything else from the writer simply because it's not enjoyable anymore.

Neither I will see or read any prequels because it doesn't make sense anymore. Its all a bla bra bla that comes to nothing.

But also never liked the treatment he gave to his series in the first place as he sold all rights, so he couldn't interfere with the script, showing a preference for the big money. I don't blame him, but from there on he made a choice and we will make ours (not that he cares though). 

 

 

[Damitol]

One of the things I won't miss when the show ends and starts to fade from the collective memory are the posts, articles and YouTube videos whining how D&D are hacks, idiots, dumb and dumber, and incapable of writing two sentences that make any sense at all.  They ruined this, they butchered that and they took +/- 75 hours of my life away that I will never get back.  And most unpardonable of all, they didn't show every minute of each month long journey from point A to point B!

No.  They took a series of great books (I'm assuming 6 and 7 will be great if they are ever written) that most people - including the author - thought were impossible to commit to film, and created one of the most popular and celebrated television shows ever, and one that has a dedicated worldwide audience as well.   

Has the ending been really rushed? Hell yeah.  Were there plot holes (and plot armor), missed opportunities, abandoned story lines, cringy moments and some completely unnecessary scenes (I'm looking at you Euron vs. Jamie) over the years?  Check, check, check, check and check.  BUT - I wouldn't trade those 75 hours for anything, and I will miss them when they are gone.

They didn't write the story I would have (unlike many, I'm able to admit mine would have sucked in comparison) and I was not always happy with choices they made, but overall GoT has been an amazing trip.  Not just watching the show, but discussing it with friends, pouring over this forum reading a lot of well written and passionate posts (even if I didn't agree with them) and watching YouTube reviews/breakdowns that all helped me appreciate things I misunderstood, or just missed altogether the first time.

So - to get back to this thread, we know the story ending is in line with what GRRM envisioned and if I've learned anything from the books and the show, don't assume anything until the screen goes black for the last time next week and the promo for "Chernobyl" starts.  Maybe Dani went mad, or maybe she just carried out her intended plan (to be explained later), maybe she will die at Arya's/Jon's hand, maybe she will line up all the Starks and burn them or maybe Jon and Dani will co-rule, dressed in white and laughing as baby Ringo Targaryen toddles around.  I may curse the TV like I did when Ned's head came off, when Cat's throat was cut or when Dani started burning innocents - but it will be GRRM's intended ending.  Love it or hate it, I thank Dan, Dave and George for taking me there.

 

 

 

[ShadowKitteh]

1 hour ago, Damitol said:

One of the things I won't miss when the show ends and starts to fade from the collective memory are the posts, articles and YouTube videos whining how D&D are hacks, idiots, dumb and dumber, and incapable of writing two sentences that make any sense at all.  They ruined this, they butchered that and they took +/- 75 hours of my life away that I will never get back.  And most unpardonable of all, they didn't show every minute of each month long journey from point A to point B!

No.  They took a series of great books (I'm assuming 6 and 7 will be great if they are ever written) that most people - including the author - thought were impossible to commit to film, and created one of the most popular and celebrated television shows ever, and one that has a dedicated worldwide audience as well.   

Has the ending been really rushed? Hell yeah.  Were there plot holes (and plot armor), missed opportunities, abandoned story lines, cringy moments and some completely unnecessary scenes (I'm looking at you Euron vs. Jamie) over the years?  Check, check, check, check and check.  BUT - I wouldn't trade those 75 hours for anything, and I will miss them when they are gone.

They didn't write the story I would have (unlike many, I'm able to admit mine would have sucked in comparison) and I was not always happy with choices they made, but overall GoT has been an amazing trip.  Not just watching the show, but discussing it with friends, pouring over this forum reading a lot of well written and passionate posts (even if I didn't agree with them) and watching YouTube reviews/breakdowns that all helped me appreciate things I misunderstood, or just missed altogether the first time.

So - to get back to this thread, we know the story ending is in line with what GRRM envisioned and if I've learned anything from the books and the show, don't assume anything until the screen goes black for the last time next week and the promo for "Chernobyl" starts.  Maybe Dani went mad, or maybe she just carried out her intended plan (to be explained later), maybe she will die at Arya's/Jon's hand, maybe she will line up all the Starks and burn them or maybe Jon and Dani will co-rule, dressed in white and laughing as baby Ringo Targaryen toddles around.  I may curse the TV like I did when Ned's head came off, when Cat's throat was cut or when Dani started burning innocents - but it will be GRRM's intended ending.  Love it or hate it, I thank Dan, Dave and George for taking me there.

 

 

 

[dbunting]

6 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Running a show into the ground is one of those things.

I'm telling you: if they had made the mistakes they made in this season in season 1 or 2, the show would have been cancelled. In fact, if I remember correctly, after the original first episode was shot, it was received so poorly that it almost was cancelled forever.

1. Running a show into the ground, please define this. It's the #1 show by almost any measure. The Bells set another ratings record, third time this season they have done that. So, yeah, running it into the ground. You can say you don't like the writing, lines, directing etc but they have made this one of the most successful shows ever, there is no debating that.

2. There are a lot of shows that are almost cancelled after the pilot. That's why they shoot it and review it. They see what works and what doesn't, make adjustments and move forward. BTW GRRM was directly involved in the pilot and S1 so if you are assigning poor scores don't just use D&D as whipping boys, you have to include GRRM as well.

[Ras1983]

Frankly, I thought the resolution of the Night King's arc was a far bigger crime against storytelling than Dany's downfall, which was both believable and predictable based on GRRM's dark storytelling and Dany's constant battles with the demons in her head.

I don't know why people can't see Dany has been heading towards this moment in the books and in the show. She lost everything in her pursuit of 'her throne' and has just gained absolute power. It would take a very strong person not to give into the bloodlust following that epic one-sided win.

The more I think about it, the more I think GRRM has intentionally written Dany as a lesson in the dangers of self-righteous justification of one's actions - especially when you have a position of absolute power (let's remember the dragons are the equivalent of WMDs).

 

[House Cambodia]

9 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I'm sure if D&D said, "We need help. Let's use the budgeting necessary for 10 seasons and 10 episodes to hire a strong writing team," HBO would have obliged.

 

Yes, I think they ran out of creative juices but couldn't bring themselves to delegate or relinquish control so just went for tying the project up as hastily as possible and walk away. So, here's my speculation:

Ten years from now aDoS will be released and we'll all acknowledge the genius of GRRM. A brand new production of either the whole story or at least the last 2 books will be commissioned, will be produced by an excellent team of screen-writers and will be a commercial megahit. We'll get what we want in the end - if we or the planet are still around to enjoy it, that is.

[hewman]

7 hours ago, Nightwish said:

I cannot be the only one.

You certainly aren’t. 

[Imp Beyond the Wall]

14 hours ago, Nightwish said:

Of course I get your point. Isn't that I said before:

The book and show followers who never actually cared if the end is revealed through the show because Martin had said that the main plot points will remain the same. Group B is the one from where he will have loses I believe because they are dissapointed with all the treatment of the series,

And treatment of the series means a lot of things for a lot of readers: the treatment of the characters, the treatment of the story lines, the treatment of any meaning, treatment of the end.

Personally I am also a Dany fan and its very painful watching this. And the same as you, I don't want to read anything else from the writer simply because it's not enjoyable anymore.

Neither I will see or read any prequels because it doesn't make sense anymore. Its all a bla bra bla that comes to nothing.

But also never liked the treatment he gave to his series in the first place as he sold all rights, so he couldn't interfere with the script, showing a preference for the big money. I don't blame him, but from there on he made a choice and we will make ours (not that he cares though). 

 

 

Fair enough.  i wasn't really arguing with your points, just venting.  Hopefully it is all out. 

All I really want to say here is 1)  I think the original premise of the thread is fair, some portion of the anger among some fans is on George, not just D&D.  2) My personal opinion is that letting the big reveal happen like this, is going to hit George in the pocketbook.