Rose of Red Lake Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 Was Jon in shock because he never fathomed Dany was capable of this and he's just NOW realizing who he's been supporting OR did he see confirmation of his worst fears about Dany in this Episode? When did he know "what" she was? When did he start lying? I feel like it's important that Tyrion and Jon not be exactly the same here. Any distinguishing features would be appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevanin Posted May 13, 2019 Share Posted May 13, 2019 I think he saw the best in her like in everybody (excluding Littlefinger, but everyone hated Littlefinger for no reason) and he didn't believe in all the bad things people said about her (it's obvious that he didn't understand why Sansa and Arya don't like Dany). But he realized that something is going wrong in the moment she executed Varys without a single emotion, she was completely indifferent when she said "dracarys". Then when she decided to burn a city that surrended, he realized that Varys was right and Dany is mad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajjo Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 On 5/13/2019 at 8:34 AM, Rose of Red Lake said: When did he know "what" she was? When did he start lying? Jon has never really lied about Daenerys. He loved her, he supported her. He thought she would have been a good queen. Jon was very surprised about Daenerys staring the crazy attack after surrender. He did not expect that at all. To the contrary, Tyrion was sceptic now for some time. Latest at E4 after the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 40 minutes ago, Kajjo said: Jon has never really lied about Daenerys. He loved her, he supported her. He thought she would have been a good queen. Jon was very surprised about Daenerys staring the crazy attack after surrender. He did not expect that at all. To the contrary, Tyrion was sceptic now for some time. Latest at E4 after the battle. Why did Dany realize he didn't love her then in this episode? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darmody Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Why did Dany realize he didn't love her then in this episode? She didn't realize that, exactly. It's just her feeling due to his inability to get intimate. But that could be temporary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
darmody Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 Jon Snow knows nothing, as I heard somewhere once. He didn't guess, and I don't blame him because he never saw her cruel side and nothing about her actions in the past two seasons has provided any hint she would lose her frickin mind and go full Dresden. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajjo Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 6 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said: Why did Dany realize he didn't love her then in this episode? It's not really that Jon does not love her, but that he cannot reciprocate her affections. This is shown in the kissing scene in which she tries to seduce him, to be romantic and he just cannot kiss her back with real emotions. For him the aunt/nephew issue is to much to overcome. It's more his fault than her's. But Daenerys realised that no one of the Northern people or Westerosi in general loves and adores here. During her childhood she was brainwashed by Viserys that Westeros ist waiting for them, will love them, want to be rules by them. Of course this is delusional. She is just an outside usurper, a foreign invader. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Kajjo said: It's not really that Jon does not love her, but that he cannot reciprocate her affections. This is shown in the kissing scene in which she tries to seduce him, to be romantic and he just cannot kiss her back with real emotions. For him the aunt/nephew issue is to much to overcome. It's more his fault than her's. She just burned a man alive and irrationally blamed him and his sister for it in a paranoid rant and you think the ONLY reason he cant return her affections is because he's grossed out by incest? Maybe he's grossed out by HER. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajjo Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said: and you think the ONLY reason he cant return her affections is because he's grossed out by incest? Yes, because he avoids affections and closeness since then revelation of his parentage. This is very obvious and clearly depicted that way. I don't think he is so much worried about a traitor like Varys being fried. Varys tried to poison her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 Just now, Kajjo said: Yes, because he avoids affections and closeness since then revelation of his parentage. This is very obvious and clearly depicted that way. I don't think he is so much worried about a traitor like Varys being fried. Varys tried to poison her. There was actually very little affection even before the parentage reveal. He opens his eyes while kissing which suggests he's already uncomfortable, and cant even entertain her romantic idea of staying at the waterfall. In the scene before that, she was about to threaten his sister again. In the scenes after R+L=J, he says they can live together which contradicts his disgust of the incest, so it suggests he's saying anything he can to get her to not kill him or his family. Jon is just not into this style of execution, you can tell because he gave her a judgemental look. And on some level he keeps saying "my queen" and even she notices it sounds like a script. "Is that all I am to you?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kajjo Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 2 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said: "Is that all I am to you?" She wanted to hear something about romance, affection, desire, lover, partner. And he couldn't. Not reciprocating the kiss was about him not being able to have sex with her since the revelation. That does not mean that he likes her execution style. But that is not the point of this scene, just an additional side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nerevanin Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 26 minutes ago, Kajjo said: It's not really that Jon does not love her, but that he cannot reciprocate her affections. This is shown in the kissing scene in which she tries to seduce him, to be romantic and he just cannot kiss her back with real emotions. For him the aunt/nephew issue is to much to overcome. It's more his fault than her's. Agree. Even after he knows that she is his aunt, he still loves her, he even said it aloud, but he can't get physically intimate with her. I wonder if Dany realizes that this is the reason because for her in-family relationships are normal. She even expected to marry Viserys. I think she sees Jon's refusal to be intimate with her as another betrayal, as if he was lying about his feelings just to use her and her army in the battle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 9 minutes ago, Kajjo said: She wanted to hear something about romance, affection, desire, lover, partner. And he couldn't. Not reciprocating the kiss was about him not being able to have sex with her since the revelation. That does not mean that he likes her execution style. But that is not the point of this scene, just an additional side. its not just about incest, she is growing increasingly more selfish, demanding, and paranoid, and that's ALSO not attractive to him. I think he's noticing signs beforehand, by how abusive she's being about his identity and how scary she's being about threats to his family. He might not think she's capable of war crimes on the level he witnessed, but he definitely is afraid of her. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rose of Red Lake Posted May 14, 2019 Author Share Posted May 14, 2019 8 minutes ago, Nerevanin said: Agree. Even after he knows that she is his aunt, he still loves her, he even said it aloud, but he can't get physically intimate with her. I wonder if Dany realizes that this is the reason because for her in-family relationships are normal. She even expected to marry Viserys. I think she sees Jon's refusal to be intimate with her as another betrayal, as if he was lying about his feelings just to use her and her army in the battle. I think she's right about that. She was right about all the betrayals so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jarl Halstein Posted May 14, 2019 Share Posted May 14, 2019 7 hours ago, darmody said: Jon Snow knows nothing, as I heard somewhere once. He didn't guess, and I don't blame him because he never saw her cruel side and nothing about her actions in the past two seasons has provided any hint she would lose her frickin mind and go full Dresden. This is true. And especially after having read the novels, where her motives are always pure, if misguided when it comes to taking Westeros. (But even there, she recognizes that her father was mad and terrible.) People say "she was always mad", "she was always power hungry", "she was always a killer" to be edgy. Guess you knew everything all along, guys! No. She protected women from being raped by the Dothraki, she freed slaves at great risk to herself, she turned down the offer of ships from the eastern cities because she wanted to stay and help her people against the slavers' invasion. Especially this last one shows clearly that she was driven by good intentions all along. Systematically, very systematically, burning thousands of innocent people to death, was ridiculous. When she could have just gone straight to the Red Keep for her burning needs. On 5/13/2019 at 8:34 AM, Rose of Red Lake said: Was Jon in shock because he never fathomed Dany was capable of this and he's just NOW realizing who he's been supporting Yes. Walking around in a burning city because your girlfriend is playing Flying Terminator above it can do that to a person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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