Mourning Dany

[adiman83]

44 minutes ago, Hoo said:

I don't see her as mad.  She got the King's Landing.  That was always the goal.  Yes she wanted to be the breaker of the chains, but the people did not. 

In the end, the goal was accomplished.  The throne is hers.

The suspense in the last episode is with the Starks, how they will react to the new queen, and whether the rest of Westeros will reject Dany because of lineage.  

 

I understand attacking the Red Keep, but why attack the civilians? The city was hers, they surrendered. 

[Nerevanin]

Dany was always going to become a mad queen. There have been hints about it since the first book / season. So I'm really not surprised that it happened. What I am surprised about is that so many people are upset about it and didn't see it coming.

Although I admit that the change of Dany from S7 to the current Mad Queen is quite fast, I think that D&D did quite a good job in making her (not so) slowly sink into madness. It wasn't like that Dany was the biggest good girl around and than *snaps fingers* she is the mad queen for no reason. There were several reasons why her mental health became so fragile: she lost her army, 2 of her dragons, Missandei, Jon doesn't want to be with her when she is his aunt, people (Varys and Sansa) are betraying her, the smallfolk don't love her as she thought, Jon might steal her throne. No wonder that all this made her mental heath quite fragile.

[Kajjo]

3 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

I knew it would be done in a lazy way, there should have been more to it. I know people argue that it was coming but it's not enough for me.

Her frustration and desperation are so believable, Why people don't see it?

She just somehow won the battle. The opponent surrenders. She realizes there is nothing to gain anyway. All she fought for her whole life for nothing. Emptiness. Void.

The people won't love her anyway. Jon won't consummate their mutual love. Nothing to hope for anymore.

Her goal in life achieved, having conquered King's Landing and absolutely nothing gained.

[Rhae_Valarie]

2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Come one, that is the one good thing about it. It really depicts the madness. Well done in the show.

She snaps because she realizes that she has nothing to gain, even after winning the battle. The people won't love her, Jon won't consummate the mutual love, she will be lonely and bitter. She freaks out. 

See the psychology of it. This is a great and believable arc. 

I agree that if they are committed to depicting her as truly mad, the surrender was necessary. However, I wonder if the books won’t take a more nuanced view of her psychology. For instance, if she does burn KL will it be because she snapped, as in the show, or will it be for morally questionable strategic reasons? Personally I hope for something a little bit ambiguous. A situation in which it could have been a purely cathartic emotional reaction or it could have been strategic, and the readers are left with the uncomfortable uncertainty of whether Dany killed millions because she wanted to or because she needed to.

[Rhae_Valarie]

4 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Dany was always going to become a mad queen. There have been hints about it since the first book / season. So I'm really not surprised that it happened. What I am surprised about is that so many people are upset about it and didn't see it coming.

Although I admit that the change of Dany from S7 to the current Mad Queen is quite fast, I think that D&D did quite a good job in making her (not so) slowly sink into madness. It wasn't like that Dany was the biggest good girl around and than *snaps fingers* she is the mad queen for no reason. There were several reasons why her mental health became so fragile: she lost her army, 2 of her dragons, Missandei, Jon doesn't want to be with her when she is his aunt, people (Varys and Sansa) are betraying her, the smallfolk don't love her as she thought, Jon might steal her throne. No wonder that all this made her mental heath quite fragile.

For me, I could see that her mind was fragile and the temptation was there but I thought she would rise above. In every other instance, she ultimately did what was right. She abandoned her quest for the throne to save the living. She forgave Jaime and Gendry even though she could have taken out her frustrations on them, due to their pasts. She never lashed out at Sansa, despite her attempts to undermine her authority. She forgave Tyrion over and over. 

When she did defy her advisors, it was never any worse than what other characters have done. By burning the Tarleys and even Mirri Max Duur she was well within her rights as queen to execute those guilty of treason. When Jon, Robb, and Ned do it with a long sword no one blinks, but I keep seeing people using her executions as foreshadowing of her madness. Why, just because it’s fire and not a noose or sword? Even her more extreme actions, like crucifying the masters, aren’t worse than Arya’s Frey pies/massacre at the twins or Sansa feeding Ramsay to his hounds. But we aren’t expected to question their sanity.

Every other time that Dany’s lost everything and had her back against the wall she’s prevailed. She’s never given into madness or done anything that can’t be justified. I wasn’t surprised by this twist, because they teased it so much, but I still don’t feel it fits her character development.

[LearnToBeNoOne]

3 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Her frustration and desperation are so believable, Why people don't see it?

No I do, I definitely do but the events don't make sense. You can't go from not seeing Euron's fleet (forgetting about it) and losing a dragon to then pretty much conquering KL with one dragon alone. It's just too OP for me and that's one example. 

Suddenly they can't hit a single dragon, she's too fast for them, too skilled for them? Which one. Simply saying she caught them off guard doesn't make sense given their success rate on the last dragon.

 

3 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

She just somehow won the battle. The opponent surrenders. She realizes there is nothing to gain anyway. All she fought for her whole life for nothing. Emptiness. Void.

The people won't love her anyway. Jon won't consummate their mutual love. Nothing to hope for anymore.

Her goal in life achieved, having conquered King's Landing and absolutely nothing gained.

If that's the case then shouldn't he die with her or at least be involved in a battle that he may survive whilst trying to kill or killing Dany. There should be a battle against her not a simple Jon kills Dany or an Arya kills Dany situation.

So I repeat, imo this calls for a battle between Jon, Arya and the Northerners vs Dany her dragon, the Unsullied and the Dothraki? If the aim is to take her down then I don't see how they would win unless they gain her trust and catch her off guard. If she is the Mad Queen now and dictated by paranoia would she just not return to base and burn everybody apart from the Unsullied and the Dothraki, the only ones she needs by her side.

If she has had an epiphany in regards to her life, that it's going to be empty and with a lack of fulfillment so instead chose to destroy everything with fire & blood do you not expect her to continue this rage. Her death should not come easy.

In this battle Dany would clearly be on top so what I can say is it would be the perfect time to fulfill the prophecy of TPTWP. The NK issue has been resolved, Dany is raging around destroying everything and is about to leave nothing but her army in KL when TPTWP defeats her which would then make her ending stronger.

 

 

[Kajjo]

1 minute ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

You can't go from not seeing Euron's fleet (forgetting about it) and losing a dragon to then pretty much conquering KL with one dragon alone. It's just too OP for me and that's one example

The storyline arc is great.

The telling in the show is rushed and has some shortcomings. Please see these to issues separately. I didn't like the Rhaegalshooting as well. This was stupid and unrealistic. They should have come up with a better solution, e.g. Rhaegal dying in the Great war. 

3 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Suddenly they can't hit a single dragon

I have no problems with that. I had my problems with hitting Rhaegal so easily. Maybe he was wounded, maybe she is more alarmed now, maybe she attacks from better angles. Maybe Drogon is beter. Yes, I agree, this is not entirely satisfying. Yes, the show would improve on that issues, but the storyline itself is fine. They conquer King's Landing using a dragon and the Golden Company cannot do anything about it. That is believable. The details are a bit tenuous.

5 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

imo this calls for a battle between Jon, Arya and the Northerners vs Dany her dragon, the Unsullied and the Dothraki?

We will see. Very difficult situation. It won't be easy between Jon and Daenerys after this catastrophe. 

We don't know where Daenerys is going to after this. 

 

[House Cambodia]

19 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

However, I wonder if the books won’t take a more nuanced view of her psychology.

See, what is so brilliant about the books, that the TV show just can't reproduce, is that every chapter is seen through the POV of a character. Thus, we'll get to see events THROUGH DANY'S OWN MIND, and then again through Tyrion and so on. That is going to be so feckin' awesome.

[House Cambodia]

1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

I didn't like the Rhaegal shooting as well. This was stupid and unrealistic.

I actually thought it was great and hyper-realistic! I don't mean shooting dragons obviously, I mean war is really like that - a literal bolt from the blue and you're dead.

What is stupid is how they then all went Star Wars Stormtrooper this episode and couldn't get one hit on Drogon. I thought Gendry was supposed to have rigged up Valaryan dragon armour, which would make sense, but we didn't see any evidence of that.

[Nerevanin]

4 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

For me, I could see that her mind was fragile and the temptation was there but I thought she would rise above. In every other instance, she ultimately did what was right. She abandoned her quest for the throne to save the living. She forgave Jaime and Gendry even though she could have taken out her frustrations on them, due to their pasts. She never lashed out at Sansa, despite her attempts to undermine her authority. She forgave Tyrion over and over. 

I suppose that she could have risen above it if only one or two things were going on. But she's been under big pressure for a long time. She lost or is going to lose almost everything she wants / wanted. I don't really blame her for not handling it well but burning a city is a bit drastic reason to get rid of frustration.

6 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

When she did defy her advisors, it was never any worse than what other characters have done. By burning the Tarleys and even Mirri Max Duur she was well within her rights as queen to execute those guilty of treason. When Jon, Robb, and Ned do it with a long sword no one blinks, but I keep seeing people using her executions as foreshadowing of her madness. Why, just because it’s fire and not a noose or sword? Even her more extreme actions, like crucifying the masters, aren’t worse than Arya’s Frey pies/massacre at the twins or Sansa feeding Ramsay to his hounds. But we aren’t expected to question their sanity.

I'm not sure if it is a good idea to go further into this because the thing about Dany doing good / bad things is an explosive topic in the GOT / ASOIAF world, but I just want to say that I don't agree.

Arya was a psycho for a few seasons, there's no denying that, but it seems she's overcome it more or less and becomes a human again. (As for the Frey pies, in the books they don't happen thanks to Arya btw). Sansa in S6 and S7 was just wierd, killing Ramsay the way she did was very out of her character imo, so I won't comment on this further. But I strongly disagree with the comparisons of Jon, Ned and Robb to Dany. These three men never did anything comparable to Dany burning the slavers in Astapor or crucifying their families in Meereen.

[Kajjo]

3 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

I suppose that she could have risen above it if only one or two things were going on. But she's been under big pressure for a long time. She lost or is going to lose almost everything she wants / wanted. I don't really blame her for not handling it well but burning a city is a bit drastic reason to get rid of frustration.

She might have risen above it if only Jon Snow could have loved her and consummated their love. Had sex with her, pleasure her, adoring her. 

But he cannot kiss her back. Probably because of the aunt/nephew issue. This is a huge downfall for her.

 

[Rhae_Valarie]

26 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

I suppose that she could have risen above it if only one or two things were going on. But she's been under big pressure for a long time. She lost or is going to lose almost everything she wants / wanted. I don't really blame her for not handling it well but burning a city is a bit drastic reason to get rid of frustration.

I'm not sure if it is a good idea to go further into this because the thing about Dany doing good / bad things is an explosive topic in the GOT / ASOIAF world, but I just want to say that I don't agree.

Arya was a psycho for a few seasons, there's no denying that, but it seems she's overcome it more or less and becomes a human again. (As for the Frey pies, in the books they don't happen thanks to Arya btw). Sansa in S6 and S7 was just wierd, killing Ramsay the way she did was very out of her character imo, so I won't comment on this further. But I strongly disagree with the comparisons of Jon, Ned and Robb to Dany. These three men never did anything comparable to Dany burning the slavers in Astapor or crucifying their families in Meereen.

Just to clarify, I think that Dany’s executions of people like the Tarleys or even Mirri are comparable to Ned’s execution of the NW deserter, Robb’s of Karstark, and Jon’s of the traitors in the NW, especially Ollie. They were all for treason, Dany just uses dragon fire.

her vengeance on the masters is different, absolutely. It’s a horrific action done in revenge for even more horrific crimes, much like Sansa and Arya’s revenges. My point is that even Dany’s most extreme actions aren’t even that extreme compared to other “heroes”.

perhaps you’re right in that Sansa and Arya’s actions were out of character. Maybe the real problem with the show is that they’ve allowed our heroes to indulge in such violence in order to maintain spectacle, that to set Dany apart they had to make such a drastic jump that it feels out of character for some viewers. 

A lot to think about but thanks for your feedback!

[Kajjo]

32 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

Arya was a psycho for a few seasons, there's no denying that

My goodness. She has never been a psycho. I cannot stand this wrong notions anymore.

The was Arya all the time. She had compassin all the time and did not kill the insurance guy or Lady Crane. She is a skilled assassin and has become callous to killing. Like soldiers do, too. She was driven be revenge like the Hound, too. She was no psycho at all. Don't abuse words like "psycho / psychopathic". She was quite callous and reasonable, even when driven by revenge. 

32 minutes ago, Nerevanin said:

killing Ramsay the way she did was very out of her character

No, it wasn't. It fit very well into her arc of development. It was one of her first steps away from "little bird". In the episodes before that she had a tough talk with Baelish which already showed her development, she anyway brought in the Vale, the won and she punished Ramsay. Very, very believable.

5 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

They were all for treason, Dany just uses dragon fire.

A prisoner of war does not commit treason by not bending the knee. Please get realistic.

[Nerevanin]

3 minutes ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

Just to clarify, I think that Dany’s executions of people like the Tarleys or even Mirri are comparable to Ned’s execution of the NW deserter, Robb’s of Karstark, and Jon’s of the traitors in the NW, especially Ollie. They were all for treason, Dany just uses dragon fire. 

I figured that you meant these examples but comparing them to burning Tarlys is comparing apples and oranges imo. Yeah, Olly, Thorne & co. were mutineers and it was kinda the law of the NW to kill them. Ned executed the deserter because it was the law, more or less. Robb executed the Karstark because he killed harmless hostages. While I think that Dany killed the Tarlys not because there was a treason (against who? Tyrells? Her father decades ago?) but because they refused to bent the knee. She basically said "bent the knee and you'll live", but they refused so she killed them. Thus she did it for personnal reasons, instead of "objective ones". That's how I see it and I definitely don't want to start a fight with you, I just want to share my perspective.

[OldGimletEye]

1 hour ago, Hoo said:

Surrender is not enough.  Surrender still made them the enemy, treasonous.  White flag did not change that.

 She caused the unnecessary slaughter of innocents.

The justification of those unnecessary deaths is both monstrous, disgusting, and pure horseshit.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

 I see no issue with her torching the whole city, She has some deep hatred towards the place and the people, when her father was overthrown it would have been very similar... bells chiming... people cheering of his death as she and her brother were smuggled out.

She probably hates the place more than she even knew and when the bells chimed set off a reaction to her childhood.

 

I wonder if it had been Jorah rather than Tyrion trying to talk some sense into her would she have listened ?

[House Cambodia]

2 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

 I see no issue with her torching the whole city, She has some deep hatred towards the place and the people, when her father was overthrown it would have been very similar... bells chiming... people cheering of his death as she and her brother were smuggled out.

She probably hates the place more than she even knew and when the bells chimed set off a reaction to her childhood.

 

I wonder if it had been Jorah rather than Tyrion trying to talk some sense into her would she have listened ?

2

Emphatically, yes! Jorah's advice and guidance to her was invariably correct. Tyrion's was invariably wrong. It was he who laboured the point about the bells meaning surrender. As she heard them it occurred to her that Tyrion had likely fallen for his sister's lies yet again and it was a set up.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

7 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

Emphatically, yes! Jorah's advice and guidance to her was invariably correct. Tyrion's was invariably wrong. It was he who laboured the point about the bells meaning surrender. As she heard them it occurred to her that Tyrion had likely fallen for his sister's lies yet again and it was a set up.

I don't believe she doubted Tyrions plan or seen it as a betrayal or poor judgement I do believe she just lost the plot..bells chiming set of some sort of PTSD from her childhood.

However I do believe at the earlier meeting when Tyrion tried to talk sense into her had it been Jorah she would have listened... Jorah has countless times shown he is more interested in her welfare than his own, this is something that no matter how good a hand Tyrion has tried to be she has most likely never felt that he would lay down his life for her, I guess knowing Jorah would and actually did would mean any advice he gave would be in her best interests not his own.

[House Cambodia]

4 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I don't believe she doubted Tyrions plan or seen it as a betrayal or poor judgement I do believe she just lost the plot..bells chiming set of some sort of PTSD from her childhood.

As the bells were ringing the camera cut from Dany pondering, to Tyrion and back to Dany. I think the writers' intention was broadcast by the director.

[StoneColdJorahMormont]

2 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

As the bells were ringing the camera cut from Dany pondering, to Tyrion and back to Dany. I think the writers' intention was broadcast by the director.

Yeah I took that another way, Tyrion told her that the chimes meant surrender and begged her not to torch innocent people... she knew this was happening but something inside her wanted to burn them all and the looks were that of disappointment and lost hope from Tyrion to his Mad Queen he put faith in and betrayed Varys for.

The pondering you talk of,  I got the feeling that she had so much rage and contempt for kings landing and its people that she wanted to burn the place down and as long as Cersei didn't surrender she would come out of it looking less of a monster but Cersei did surrender and in that moment her desire to torch everything went into overdrive and she thought to hell with the consequences.