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47 minutes ago, loverofcats said:

I was just reading theories in Bran topic. I agree thay Bran could be a bad person now or maybe all he did was for the good of the realm.
Unfortunately I don't think we'll see an explanation about Bran at the  end of the show.

yep that is my fear...but I hope we will !

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Rewatched the episode and I am still shocked with how this all played out. We start with Tyrion going to Dany and she says "Someone has betrayed me." And we're supposed to take this as her being paranoid, but she's right. Then she says it's Jon Snow and Tyrion is all "This lady cray cray, let me coo at her." but then Dany goes into exact detail how it was Varys <-- Tyrion <-- Sansa (manipulative) <-- Jon Snow which is totally true. But she's paranoid? 

 

Also I keep finding it interesting that Jon Snow keeps repeating "I don't want it." He never says (correct me if I'm wrong) that he wouldn't take it if it was up for grabs. Varys straight up tells him that he wants Jon to be king and Jon is just cool with him trying to overthrow Dany? He doesn't tell Varys to shut his trap, he just warns him that he's speaking treachery. He doesn't even tell Dany that one of her closest advisers plans to take her from the throne. Dany up until her "snap" was completely aware of all the politics being played around her. Varys tries to overthrow her before she did anything wrong. Jon also later goes in and professes that he loves her (don't try to tell me that wasn't a romantic confession because it was!) and then he does nothing to comfort her and just rejects her. They don't even have the "you're my aunt and I'm uncomfortable with it" talk, for Dany this is status quo so she really has no clue why he rejects her for this. Did anyone think of that? 

 

I could understand her snapping, I mean she grew her army starting with Dothraki who kill and obliterate all the cities they plunder. She mainly just knows slave masters who have no value of human life. She's not even that crazy when you think of it from that perspective. Yes she may have hated those methods, but they are not new methods. Killing innocents is not a new thing at all to her. Only difference between her and anyone else she's encountered is that she has a dragon. So you can play that angle, but she doesn't even go after Cersei and the Mountain. That makes NO SENSE. Why go after the innocents first? I'm so sad because they have ruined all the other characters for me and nothing will be a happy ending for me if Dany dies. 

 

Also did anyone else go "wtf?" when they started playing sad music when Cersei and Jamie died together? Lol I have no sympathy for them. 

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Long time Dany fan here, my second favourite character after Arya, and a few thoughts.

I liked her as a character precisely because she was grey and flawed and with a ruthless edge, not the perfect Mhysa that perhaps the show, and to a lesser extent the books, would sometimes portray. Most didn't care about the thousands she left dead behind her because they were portrayed as "bad" people, 

I am sure that GRRM is heading for a similar arc for her, but every detail is unlikely to be exactly the same.

To look a bit deeper into this, does that mean GRRM intended for Dany to be tragic character, an Anakin if you will.  I am not sure on that as he avoids anachronisms in his writing. The red wedding was terrible because it was a breach of guest right not because of how many were killed. There are no doubt numerous other examples as well. Characters in the books do not think in modern terms (on the show is another matter particularly in recent seasons). I think he has set her up to be a conqueror, and an increasingly ruthless one at that, and many conquerors did sack cities that defied them, no one called them mad, a number had the word Great added after their name.  

If what she did was a rational decision, rather than a descent into madness, to bring peace by showing what happens to those who defy her, then I would be quite happy for her to end up on the Iron Throne. The show though will probably go a more Hollywood route and have one of the Starks kill her though.  

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Dany had to the burn the city first since Arya was in the red keep.  Arya's legendary plot armour shield was protecting the red keep so Dany simply had to burn the city until Arya had left. 

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On 5/13/2019 at 1:53 PM, Rhae_Valarie said:

I know a lot of people expected the Mad Daenerys twist but personally I was never one of them and this last episode has left me devastated, to say the least. I find myself desperately hoping that this is contrived for the purposes of the show and won’t come to pass in the books, but I have my doubts. Endings to something you love are always hard, but the ruination of one of my favorite characters in all of literature blindsided me.

 

what are your thoughts on Dany’s future and how do you feel about this development? 

I totally feel ya, even though Dany isn't even my fav character from the books. In the books, Dany can be vengeful, but so far GRRM has shown it only as a reaction to horrible things like slavery. She executes people and does all that in Slaver's bay against the masters, so it's all understandable if not exactly right by modern standards. Dany's ADwD story frustrated me, but it's not completely unreasonable showing her going off the rails like the show does. 

GRRM plans to supposedly show Dany's "bad side" as a conqueror. In book 1 she has a dream that she's flying (as a dragon), and everything beneath her wings is scared of her. So this is probably her destiny as a conqueror. But it's hard to say if GRRM would go the show way and write Dany as a character who does cruel things for petty reasons.

If she ends up a Cersei, that would totally be a complete waste of a character that could be morally complex and overall great. We see male heroes doing terrible things, quite famously Darth Vader. Anakin has a great ending where he redeems himself. And there are male protags who go end up the villain, like Arthas from World of Warcraft. His path to hell is made of good intentions. If Dany ends up evil, I hope it's like Arthas's in that the trajectory makes logical sense, is tragic, and is eventually the price of being too compassionate and righteous in a cruel world with senseless violence unfolding all around her. In the show, it's just a stupid misogynistic portrayal that I hope never comes to pass in the books if they every get written. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2019 at 4:23 AM, Rhae_Valarie said:

I know a lot of people expected the Mad Daenerys twist but personally I was never one of them and this last episode has left me devastated, to say the least. I find myself desperately hoping that this is contrived for the purposes of the show and won’t come to pass in the books, but I have my doubts. Endings to something you love are always hard, but the ruination of one of my favorite characters in all of literature blindsided me.

 

what are your thoughts on Dany’s future and how do you feel about this development? 

I think there's pretty much no chance of things going down as the poorly lazily written show did them, and I am skeptical that Dany becomes someone who chases down and burns smallfolk intentionally.

But I do think GRRM has always intended to have Dany and her ambitions come into conflict with, and perhaps pass harsh sentences against, some noble fan favorites.

Let's remember that King Aerys is known as the Mad King because of the things he did to nobles like Lord Rickard, Brandon, and Elbert, and for what he intended to do to nobles like Ned and Robert.

He isn't known as the Mad King because he had a record of harming smallfolk. As far as we know, he had no such record, and few outside of Jaime know about his wildfire plot, which would have murdered hundreds of thousands of smallfolk.

Edited by Bael's Bastard

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At least many of Dany´s fans are being honest here about the reasons why they didn´t like how things have turned out, instead of blaming 'writing' again (which we all agree has dropped in the last seasons). Not trying to sound clever because it felt obvious to me since the begining but i did always see Dany with a pretty much evident psycho 'touch', and while the mayhem in The Bells also thrilled me it wasn´t totally unexpected.

I understand the reasons of some to be sad but even if it sounds perverse Dany has won me over with her ruthlesness. She was getting a bit annoying and silly in her contradictions between good will/idealism and her arrogance/tyranical manners, while always surrounded with 'not so brilliant' advisers. We were all waiting for her true self through the seasons somehow, and i find her 'fuck you all' moment incredibly powerful and liberating for that, even if it involves genocide. This is fiction guys. why not rejoice in her inmense display of power and forget ethics for once?

She acted alone for once and god i found it truly solid. Fear it is...:wub:

 

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

 

But I do think GRRM has always intended to have Dany and her ambitions come into conflict with, and perhaps pass harsh sentences against, some noble fan favorites. 

 

From what i read in an interview GRRM actually 'warns' the Houses in Westeros against intriguing about minor things when there are two dangerous monsters developing; north of the wall and east of the sea...

'Writing' aside The Bells was always GRRM´s in my opinion.

Edited by Empress Sansa

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Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2019 at 4:23 AM, Rhae_Valarie said:

I know a lot of people expected the Mad Daenerys twist but personally I was never one of them and this last episode has left me devastated, to say the least. I find myself desperately hoping that this is contrived for the purposes of the show and won’t come to pass in the books, but I have my doubts. Endings to something you love are always hard, but the ruination of one of my favorite characters in all of literature blindsided me.

 

what are your thoughts on Dany’s future and how do you feel about this development? 

Sorry, I will probably rehash what others have said. I’m doing an immediate reaction to OP

 

She had Nukes. The Targaryen conquest was always about using excessive weapons.

i feel that the Dany character was the only honest ending that came from the initial meeting between grrm and dipshit and dipshit.

 

Edited by Table8

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I've got nothing against Daenerys turning mad, never been a huge fan of her either in a show or books.

However, I've got an issue in which it was presented to us (bells). And some people said that it's confirmed that D&D have simply merged JonCon's future KL storyline with Dany's. If that's the case then I have no words. Just pure incompetence and laziness if they cannot conjure up any other reason as to why she snapped and we have come up with the story ourselves through "foreshadowing".

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I really don't think that the show took away Dany's story and gave it to Jon Connington. She's going to break bad, that was her whole story all along.

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7 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

I really don't think that the show took away Dany's story and gave it to Jon Connington. She's going to break bad, that was her whole story all along.

It may not happen exactly as in the Show, but I think we'll see her perform some very dark deeds - perhaps in Western Essos, as she rides West to invade Westeros.

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

I really don't think that the show took away Dany's story and gave it to Jon Connington. She's going to break bad, that was her whole story all along.

But you think she will arrive at westeros as a savior? That she and jon will fall in love? So that they break up for reasons that don t make sense in asoiaf universe and danny becomes madder than aerys?

The problem isn t really the end but more how she got there...

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3 minutes ago, divica said:

But you think she will arrive at westeros as a savior? That she and jon will fall in love? So that they break up for reasons that don t make sense in asoiaf universe and danny becomes madder than aerys?

The problem isn t really the end but more how she got there...

Aerys was certainly mad.  He saw and heard things that were not there.

Daenerys may be "mad" in the sense of being furious, but not in the sense that her father was.

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Just now, SeanF said:

Aerys was certainly mad.  He saw and heard things that were not there.

Daenerys may be "mad" in the sense of being furious, but not in the sense that her father was.

Look, burning thousands of inocent civilians after the city surrender to you is mad. You are punishing people that acepted you as their leader for no good reason.

Not even aerys did that! And he was considered mad...

Hell, if danny destroyed KL because they didn t surrender it could be understood… The show just pushed the evil mad danny too much... 

 

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1 minute ago, divica said:

Look, burning thousands of inocent civilians after the city surrender to you is mad. You are punishing people that acepted you as their leader for no good reason.

Not even aerys did that! And he was considered mad...

Hell, if danny destroyed KL because they didn t surrender it could be understood… The show just pushed the evil mad danny too much... 

 

Were allied war leaders mad, when they firebombed German and Japanese cities, long past the point where it was clear that the war was won?

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Just now, SeanF said:

Were allied war leaders mad, when they firebombed German and Japanese cities, long past the point where it was clear that the war was won?

They hadn t surrendered therefore the war wasn t won.

The proper comparison to danny's actions is if the allies had bombed those cities after they surrendered and the war was over. And if they had done it then they were crazy...

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

They hadn t surrendered therefore the war wasn t won.

The proper comparison to danny's actions is if the allies had bombed those cities after they surrendered and the war was over. And if they had done it then they were crazy...

I would say cruel and brutal, rather than crazy.  For example, vast numbers of ethnic Germans were deported, (and thousands killed) from Eastern Europe after the War had been won.  The Russians, Poles, Czechs not only wanted revenge, but also to strike down their enemies  so hard that they could never threaten them again.

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