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Just now, SeanF said:

I would say cruel and brutal, rather than crazy.  For example, vast numbers of ethnic Germans were deported, (and thousands killed) from Eastern Europe after the War had been won.  The Russians, Poles, Czechs not only wanted revenge, but also to strike down their enemies  so hard that they could never threaten them again.

You are talking about small scale cruelty and vengeance from several people. We just saw a single person destroying a city… IT can only be compared to launching an atomic bomb in berlin after the war was over…

It would be simply evil….

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Posted (edited)

I’ve seen a ton of posts theorizing the reasons behind Dany’s recent polarity, a majority of which are regarding her most recent losses of loved ones and Jon’s inheritance revelation to say nothing of her psychological state.

 

However, I really have seen next to nothing regarding the second revelation Dany had to digest which was the circumstances surrounding her brother’s death. During Jon’s reveal in the crypts she states that while she had grown up being told Rhaegar was an honorable man, somewhere along the way she had come to terms with the fact that he had in fact committed abhorrent atrocities. Then Jon quite literally dumps not only his (Jon’s) true identity on her, but the reality that her brother WAS just and essentially her entire family was annihilated because of Robert Baratheon’s ego. 

 

To add to this, and I know D&D’s after episode commentaries are  making people feel stabby, but they do mention that after the city has surrendered, Dany is essentially inhaling the view of the Red Keep and becoming overwhelmed with feelings regarding the castle her family built. They imply that her dichotomous decision to torch the city was in one part evoked by the knowledge that the Targaryens and everything they established in Westeros was ruthlessly taken from them because Rhaegar was unfairly vilified. 

Now granted, King Aerys murdering Brandon Stark and his decent into madness cleared the way for ultimately igniting the rebellion. However, the fact that Brandon confronted Aerys over Lyanna’s assumed abduction in the first place begs asking the question why everyone (the Starks, Baratheons, etc.) we’re so quick to believe that Lyanna had met with foul play. Unless this type of behavior was totally out of character for her coupled with a general mistrust of Targs....or the Starks were operating under their bias for Robert and his word/honor. 

 

Finally, whether or not you still empathize with Robert’s Rebellion at this juncture, I just find it fascinating and a point that adds another layer to Dany’s character. I don’t think her heel turn can ever be explained so simply; i.e., She’s crazy, power hungry, bad coping skills, etc. especially after all the veritable “bombs” that are lobbed her way in such a short period of time. And let’s face it: to find out her brother was murdered under false pretenses is a doozy. 

Edited by MormontofOldstones

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On 5/16/2019 at 9:10 PM, Lady's Secret said:

I think GRRM  told them that Danny burns down King’s Landing and kills almost everyone in it...but left out that it was an accident.

In the books, Kings Landing’s still has caches of wildfire underground rigged to go off in a chain reaction to destroy the whole city if one cache is ignited.  How much dragon fire do you think it would take to ignite one cache and set the whole thing off? I don’t think it would take much. And only Jaime and Brienne know about it.

I’ve always thought this detail would come back into play. And I like the idea of Jaime not really saving King’s Landing  but only delaying the inevitable. All because he is too proud to explain his actions.

 Also Danny would likely lose everyone fighting for her that enters King’s Landing when this happens. Talk about a mental stressor!  In her quest for the iron throne, she gets a whole city full of civilians killed, destroys her own capital, fulfills the Mad King’s plan and causes the death of her own soldiers. That’s pretty damn bittersweet.

Very interesting theory, I would much prefer that than to have her totally betray her morals and inner character.

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Calmly burning Varys, then trying to bang a distraught Jon like its another normal evening. In early seasons, I'd guess subtle character trait? (comparing Aerys after such executions) But its S8, so likely just coincidence. 

Again, at this point in the show, Dany consciously deciding to raze KL is the worst shitty character shit that could ever be shit out. A fit of madness (hallucinations etc. in the books) could remove some stain from our perspective as opposed to a monster. We just had Cersei for years, I need a Super Cersei now?  Some folks are hating Dany portrayed as this bloodthirsty out-of-control nutjob...instead preferring her aware/complicit mass murdering children. Crazy is crazy, but it needn't be evil. 

Show finale could find Dany somewhere in solitude, and complete shock and possibly in tears at what she was capable of once it was over, as other characters loathe/fear her and we again question our feelings. I'll take anything (even Bran warging) over plain heel turn, which is what I expect.

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I like the wildfire cache idea, but wouldnt it require dragon fire levied into the city (to ignite it), which is where Tyrion/Jon/Varys' etc qualms all kinda begin. 

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Well you are not the only ones hating what they did to Dany , the petition to remake S8 on Change now has more than a million signatures.

It was the stupidest "twist" ever and the explanations that it was foreshadowed are thoroughly unconvincing. The psychology even less convincing.

There was a compelling story to tell of Dany as a tragic Hero where her best intentions and imperious zealousness result in tragic and horrible unintended consequences. But that story needed more time to tell so instead we got her inexplicably snapping and simply trashing 8 seasons of character development. And to get to that point we needed idiocy upon idiocy - Euron, Dumb Tyrion, Varys without a any subtlety. 

I am really hoping that GRRM tells the story of the tragic hero, the triumphant queen whose victory sours when her sense of destiny and doubts over her legitimacy cause her to start becoming something like the High Sparrow on steroids in trying to upend the social order. Then all the problems in mereen with the consequences of massive social change would make sense in the wider story, with the Starks leading the Westeros version of the harpies, fighting for traditional westerosi. And all this happening in a continent shattered by war and freezing through the longest winter in memory, and hardly in a position to undergo a social revolution. And then I could see Arya assasinating Dany, leaving an enraged Drogon burning westeros in vengeance. 

There are a load of intersting ways you could get to the tragic queen without just trashing her character like that.

I mourn for one of the great literary characters suddenly transformed into a crazy cartoonish villain.

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7 hours ago, MormontofOldstones said:

I’ve seen a ton of posts theorizing the reasons behind Dany’s recent polarity, a majority of which are regarding her most recent losses of loved ones and Jon’s inheritance revelation to say nothing of her psychological state.

 

However, I really have seen next to nothing regarding the second revelation Dany had to digest which was the circumstances surrounding her brother’s death. During Jon’s reveal in the crypts she states that while she had grown up being told Rhaegar was an honorable man, somewhere along the way she had come to terms with the fact that he had in fact committed abhorrent atrocities. Then Jon quite literally dumps not only his (Jon’s) true identity on her, but the reality that her brother WAS just and essentially her entire family was annihilated because of Robert Baratheon’s ego. 

 

That's a fair point, the knowledge that most of her family were killed based on a lie, is likely to have shaped her response. 

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On 5/17/2019 at 11:00 PM, Empress Sansa said:

At least many of Dany´s fans are being honest here about the reasons why they didn´t like how things have turned out, instead of blaming 'writing' again (which we all agree has dropped in the last seasons).

 

Haha, guilty. I'm blaming the writing. :lol: But I wasn't Dany's biggest fan before this episode, so maybe that takes me off the hook...

But to make a within-the-universe argument for Dany's decision, even though I feel any such considerations are futile now for any of the characters since they're all obviously doing what they do not because of character anymore, but because of plot - - - 

Dany's forces were mostly eradicated during the Long Night. Yes, we see Dothraki charging down the streets of King's Landing, but they should have all been dead. Most of the Unsullied should have been dead.

Dany knows that someone have been plotting to put someone else on the throne. And she knows the plots will continue. Her own family was once murdered because the lords of the land turned against the king and prince.

She has no reason at this point to believe anyone will ever love her. They love their own.

She doesn't really have anyone who will warn her of any dangers that might arise once she is queen, because Tyrion turned out to be not only incompetent, but untrustworthy. Varys betrayed her.

If she is to retain power after taking it by force, she has to make sure that people are so afraid of her that they will not plot against her, because she simply does not have enough supporters to survive the plots of the lords, the rebelling farmers, the lone wolf assassins that will seek revenge. She needs to scare everyone off.

Raw power truly is all she has left, if she really is intent on ruling.

When the bells ring, she has lost her chance to display her power properly. She has lost the one advantage that might make people think twice before they come after her. She should have done it a second sooner. But - better late than never. And better now, as the bells ring, than tomorrow or next week, when those who write down the history can no longer write the story in such a way to make it seem like she had no choice.

So her decision does not need to be a mad act, nor an emotional act, it might be a calculated one.

It was her advisers' duty to be on her side, and they weren't, even after her following their advice time and time again. Everybody around her were behaving stupidly, and they would most likely have come after her once she had helped rid Westeros of Cersei.

I want to make it clear once more that I do not condone the murder of innocents as an act to solidify your power. But even so, I'm not going to turn my back on Dany in this situation. What she did was not okay, now she's going to have to face the consequences, but Gods know it would have been a far more interesting story if they had given her a season to wrestle with the fallout.

It would have been a far more interesting story if her advisers were actually clever this season.

It would have been a far more interesting story if Cersei had an actual plan beyond "ballista!"

It would have been far more interesting if Sansa had actually learned something from Littlefinger and behaved in a way that kept her feelings secret.

It would have been far more interesting if Arya had some payoff for her Faceless Man-training in this season, not just for her Chasing Cats in King's Landing-training.

Yeah, I can't help but revert back to the 'bad writing' argument. The ending of Monty Python's Holy Grail rivals this show when it comes to making sense.

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Opened the paper today to see a picture of a cute little girl...………….. whose parents called her Khaleesi.

Apparently 371 baby girls have been called Khaleesi in the UK alone, with a further 26 called Daenerys. 

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9 hours ago, ComfyLettuce said:

I like the wildfire cache idea, but wouldnt it require dragon fire levied into the city (to ignite it), which is where Tyrion/Jon/Varys' etc qualms all kinda begin. 

I've argued previously that it would have made more sense for her to learn Tyrion's plan to have Jamie evacuate Cercei via the crypts and for Dany to direct Drogon to direct his fire there. That would ignite the wildfire, inadvertently burning the city, and also give Cercei more of a poetic justice death by having her wildfire kill her.

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13 hours ago, MormontofOldstones said:

I’ve seen a ton of posts theorizing the reasons behind Dany’s recent polarity, a majority of which are regarding her most recent losses of loved ones and Jon’s inheritance revelation to say nothing of her psychological state.

 

However, I really have seen next to nothing regarding the second revelation Dany had to digest which was the circumstances surrounding her brother’s death. During Jon’s reveal in the crypts she states that while she had grown up being told Rhaegar was an honorable man, somewhere along the way she had come to terms with the fact that he had in fact committed abhorrent atrocities. Then Jon quite literally dumps not only his (Jon’s) true identity on her, but the reality that her brother WAS just and essentially her entire family was annihilated because of Robert Baratheon’s ego. 

 

To add to this, and I know D&D’s after episode commentaries are  making people feel stabby, but they do mention that after the city has surrendered, Dany is essentially inhaling the view of the Red Keep and becoming overwhelmed with feelings regarding the castle her family built. They imply that her dichotomous decision to torch the city was in one part evoked by the knowledge that the Targaryens and everything they established in Westeros was ruthlessly taken from them because Rhaegar was unfairly vilified. 

Now granted, King Aerys murdering Brandon Stark and his decent into madness cleared the way for ultimately igniting the rebellion. However, the fact that Brandon confronted Aerys over Lyanna’s assumed abduction in the first place begs asking the question why everyone (the Starks, Baratheons, etc.) we’re so quick to believe that Lyanna had met with foul play. Unless this type of behavior was totally out of character for her coupled with a general mistrust of Targs....or the Starks were operating under their bias for Robert and his word/honor. 

 

Finally, whether or not you still empathize with Robert’s Rebellion at this juncture, I just find it fascinating and a point that adds another layer to Dany’s character. I don’t think her heel turn can ever be explained so simply; i.e., She’s crazy, power hungry, bad coping skills, etc. especially after all the veritable “bombs” that are lobbed her way in such a short period of time. And let’s face it: to find out her brother was murdered under false pretenses is a doozy. 

This is excellent analysis and an angle I haven't heard before. It's worth copying for a repeat read. :thumbsup:

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Bad or lazy writing has been (rightfully) blamed for many things, especially this season, but I can't go there with Mad Dany torching King's Landing. I won't rehash the many reasons so many folks have given for Dany losing it, but all those reasons are legit. The betrayals and accompanying paranoia, the solitude, her boyfriend dumped her, etc etc.. all that piled upon someone who actually has the power to strike back, I think Dany snapping is a very understandable result considering the circumstances. Having Dany go crazy may have been the easiest move for the writers, but something isn't wrong just because it's easy. I don't even like it, i would prefer Dany held it together, but i don't think it's wrong they did it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending the mostly sloppy writing, I just don't think this particular decision was necessarily a bad one. 

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59 minutes ago, Rory Snow said:

I don't even like it, i would prefer Dany held it together, but i don't think it's wrong they did it. 

The writers have all the power. If they had Tyrion fly around on carpet throwing fireballs, it would be wrong because flying carpets and fireballs haven't been established.

Even though dragons were established, they had to give us a real reason why Dany went against her core value of not harming innocents. 

If the explanation is that she is mad, let us see that aspect of her in earlier episodes. Maybe she wants to show mercy to some slaver lord, but then Drogon's sinister head looms over her, and suddenly she deals out a much harsher punishment than she intended. Something like that.

It wasn't wrong that they did it in the sense that they can do anything they want, but it was wrong that they only "foreshadowed" it instead of truly building it into the story.

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18 minutes ago, Vanadis said:

The writers have all the power. If they had Tyrion fly around on carpet throwing fireballs, it would be wrong because flying carpets and fireballs haven't been established.

Even though dragons were established, they had to give us a real reason why Dany went against her core value of not harming innocents. 

If the explanation is that she is mad, let us see that aspect of her in earlier episodes. Maybe she wants to show mercy to some slaver lord, but then Drogon's sinister head looms over her, and suddenly she deals out a much harsher punishment than she intended. Something like that.

It wasn't wrong that they did it in the sense that they can do anything they want, but it was wrong that they only "foreshadowed" it instead of truly building it into the story.

I think the series has been all over the place in its attitude to brutality.  It's legitimate to have a character like Dany who starts by being brutal to evil people in the name of justice, gradually loses her moral compass, and ends up being brutal to people who don't deserve it.  The problems is that brutality is often portrayed as triumphant, liberating, or amusing, like Arya feeding Walder Frey his sons, or gouging out Meryn Trant's eyes, or Sansa feeding Ramsey Bolton to his dogs, yet somehow, they remain on the side of right.

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Posted (edited)

I don't like 20th centuary analogies to GOT, but somone above mentioned Hiroshima. The war was more or less over. Germany had surrendered following Italy. Japan was ready to give in. USA could hear the bells ringing, but launched the Enola Gay anyway. That was outright mass slaughter of innocents for a cause that was pretty much won.

So why do it? Firstly to positively guarantee surrender. But mostly to guarantee that there would be no re-grouping and having another attempt in a few years. USA did it not really do it to win a war but to make a statement that any future war would be doomed because of their enormous power and proveable willingness to use it.

Dany simply didn't see victory as being enough. She had to end forever the thought in anyone's mind that they might challenge her authority.

Is that madness? Or is that logic with a scary amount of ruthlessness? Was Harry Truman insane? Or just logical and ruthless?

Edited by Pauld123

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2 hours ago, Pauld123 said:

I don't like 20th centuary analogies to GOT, but somone above mentioned Hiroshima.

I'd say Nagasaki is the better analogy - the point was made with Hiroshima; the second bomb seemed more gratuitous.

I'm with you on 20th century analogies when people are proposing participatory democracy in a mediaeval universe, but as a dragon is effectively a WMD, I think the atomic comparison is reasonably apt.

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On 5/13/2019 at 12:50 PM, Kajjo said:

Her behaviour after snapping is clearly not about reason but about snapping. I would call this madness for the sake of the show but not in the emaning as permanente disorder, but as a personality trait that gives you a tendency to snap under certain circumstances. 

If her closest advisers Tyrion and Varys hadn't betrayed her, if Jon had reciprocated her affections, if she would have been respected more in the North, she might never had snapped and been a good Queen.#

Completely agree, I wouldn't call hers a madness but more an act of rage - she was completely triggered. 

The show rushed her deterioration, she felt entitled to the throne and suddenly faced a lot of losses all at once in particular the things you mentioned. I believe that another catalyst was definitely her lack of trust for Tyrion, she really did not trust those bells.  

On 5/13/2019 at 12:50 PM, Kajjo said:

I am sure Daenerys will die. Probably Jon will kill her.

That's a consequence that would make sense. However if she's now the paranoid 'Mad Queen' that everybody is labelling her as in addition to him rejecting her and Grey Worm witnessing Jon's hesitance, it would be a little unrealistic. 

Dany, a dragon, The Unsillied and The Dothraki is enough to overcome Jon and whoever he allies himself with imo. 

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On 5/13/2019 at 9:21 PM, nara said:

I thought it was easy for them to kill Rhaegal because he was injured and unable to fly high or fast. Jon mentions the injury as the reason he isn’t riding Rhaegal.

Drogon dove from very high, hiding among the clouds, and descending at a steeper angle and faster than the weapons could handle. Once panic started it would be harder for the soldiers to aim. This is a relatively new weapon for them and they have not had years to practice.

The impact is probably exaggerated in both instances but is not horribly unbelievable in my opinion.

Sure, it doesn't justify the accuracy imo. 

Definitely, that was my point it was seriously flawed. There's better ways to remove a dragon from the series. They aren't short for cash either yet removed the dragon in the most cost efficient way, making the episode suffer. 

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I am definitely mourning Dany. They killed her in 8.5. They replaced her with Hitler. Worse, everyone else receives a happy ending because I guess she was the true villain this whole time.

 

Sad that now knowing what is to come, I won't be rushing to pre order GRRM's next book. I loved that series and I loved her. She became an icon for female empowerment and they trashed her reputation. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2019 at 10:23 AM, Rhae_Valarie said:

I know a lot of people expected the Mad Daenerys twist but personally I was never one of them and this last episode has left me devastated, to say the least. I find myself desperately hoping that this is contrived for the purposes of the show and won’t come to pass in the books, but I have my doubts. Endings to something you love are always hard, but the ruination of one of my favorite characters in all of literature blindsided me.

 

what are your thoughts on Dany’s future and how do you feel about this development? 

The twist itself is not contrived for the show, it was always going to happen. Dany had always shown at least the potential, if not inclination, to become the Mad Queen. And the books are definitely going in that direction as well, with Daenerys embracing "fire and blood" in desert back in Mereen.

What is contrived is the manner in which the show handled it. Now, it has been a while, but as I recall it showrunners actually removed some of her darker moments from the books. She is much more goody-shoes in the show than in the books. And that is an issue: there is less buildup towards her "Mad Queen" epilogue. Less buildup, less context, less justification.

However, the basics are there. She believes herself to be the messiah, she had been told that the smallfolks will love her and run to her. But that will not happen in the books either; except instead of Jon, it will likely be Aegon/Young Griff they will cheer, if Dany's vision is any indication.

On 5/13/2019 at 11:04 PM, Hodor's Dragon said:

Oh please, you're exactly describing the "protagonist goes insane at the very end of the story" deus ex machina. That's horrible, beginner-like writing. Great and believable my left antenna.

It is actually set up in the books. But the show removed most of it.

EDIT:

There is even a lot of foreshadowing in the show itself.

 

Edited by Aldarion

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