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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

The storyline arc is great.

The telling in the show is rushed and has some shortcomings. Please see these to issues separately. I didn't like the Rhaegalshooting as well. This was stupid and unrealistic. They should have come up with a better solution, e.g. Rhaegal dying in the Great war. 

I don't' have an issue with where she's heading as that's clearly what her character is meant to be, I just don't like how she got there. So for me I don't like her arc as much, should have played out a little differently.

Everything about that situation was ridiculous and then the next episode she runs riot and takes over KL with 1 dragon whilst avoiding everything. Yep would have been if the dragon had to die it died whilst taking part in the war, helping to get up to the point just before the bells started to ring.

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

I have no problems with that. I had my problems with hitting Rhaegal so easily. Maybe he was wounded, maybe she is more alarmed now, maybe she attacks from better angles. Maybe Drogon is beter. Yes, I agree, this is not entirely satisfying. Yes, the show would improve on that issues, but the storyline itself is fine. They conquer King's Landing using a dragon and the Golden Company cannot do anything about it. That is believable. The details are a bit tenuous.

I don't have an issue with the dragon and what she managed to achieve with it, yes there are inconsistencies sure but we finally saw a dragon at its full potential and that is what we have been waiting for. Those scenes were actually really enjoyable.

It's just hard to ignore the last episode, the casualties, the death of Rhaegal and Missandei's death. Euron should have never been in such a strong position and a dragon shouldn't have been killed so easily, especially as they couldn't land a single shot in this one. We've gone over this but it's a pretty hard barrier to overcome.

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

We will see. Very difficult situation. It won't be easy between Jon and Daenerys after this catastrophe. 

We don't know where Daenerys is going to after this. 

 

Very true, how we define her personality depends on which side you're leaning on, mass murderer or mad? You could see the horror on Jon's face, it just comes down to whether he will accept her for it or abandon her, tough to say at this point whether or not he has it in him to kill her. 

Yet it's hard to accept that it will be easy and with no consequences. Dany looks pretty unstoppable with Drogon.

If not, Arya? Everybody is saying Arya as the FM, I did say that when it came to Cersei but that was on her original list. FM don't decide who lives or who dies yet if she truly is one then how much longer can she continue like this? She's been breaking the rules for a while now. It made sense before as her list until this episode had been the same since she left the House of Black and White which maybe got her a pass. Or she accepts the consequences because she was staying alive to murder them all so if she's then killed, it's whatever.

So it would be a bit of a stretch for he to kill Dany unless it becomes the Many Faced Gods desire. Which comes back to my point about her breaking the rules she clearly doesn't care. Does she have enough time to kill Dany as she's been taking without giving, when will she give? Will she complete the series without being held accountable to anything?

A lot of things may actually be answered by being left unanswered.

 

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2 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Very true, how we define her personality depends on which side you're leaning on, mass murderer or mad?

Her behaviour after snapping is clearly not about reason but about snapping. I would call this madness for the sake of the show but not in the emaning as permanente disorder, but as a personality trait that gives you a tendency to snap under certain circumstances. 

If her closest advisers Tyrion and Varys hadn't betrayed her, if Jon had reciprocated her affections, if she would have been respected more in the North, she might never had snapped and been a good Queen.

4 minutes ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

Will she complete the series without being held accountable to anything?

I am sure Daenerys will die. Probably Jon will kill her.

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Another thought... the show runners specifically said that if Dany hadn’t been put through those specific circumstances she probably wouldn’t have snapped. Since it seems unlikely that those exact events will happen in the book, could this be the show runners attempt at covering themselves in case Dany’s arc turns out differently in the books? Or is it wishful thinking on my part?

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11 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Extremely unlikely. The foreshadowing was immense and Daenerys' chance of being Queen of the Seven Kingdoms were near null all the time anyway,. even without turning into the Mad Queen. 

Please accept that GRRM wrote this story, from the very first line knowing that Daenerys will not be the nice and mild queen. The ending in the book will be the same with regards of Daenerys destroying King's Landing and turning mad.

No, I don't accept that. I'm a good reader with a grad degree in fiction writing, I read the books closely, and I do not interpret them that way.

Admittedly, what happened in the show makes it more likely that the books will turn out similarly, but what we've heard about the congruence between the show and book endings has always been rather vague.

What I feel more certain of, based on how well everything is put together in the books, is that if Dany ultimately becomes a bloody tyrant, there will be a much more believable transition. What happened in the show was utter hogwash.

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This will almost certainly happen in the books, but you know, actually done well and logically.

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9 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

I figured that you meant these examples but comparing them to burning Tarlys is comparing apples and oranges imo. Yeah, Olly, Thorne & co. were mutineers and it was kinda the law of the NW to kill them. Ned executed the deserter because it was the law, more or less. Robb executed the Karstark because he killed harmless hostages. While I think that Dany killed the Tarlys not because there was a treason (against who? Tyrells? Her father decades ago?) but because they refused to bent the knee. She basically said "bent the knee and you'll live", but they refused so she killed them. Thus she did it for personnal reasons, instead of "objective ones". That's how I see it and I definitely don't want to start a fight with you, I just want to share my perspective.

Thanks for sharing your opinion so politely! Your insights are helping me come to terms with this, so thank you very much!

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10 hours ago, LearnToBeNoOne said:

No I do, I definitely do but the events don't make sense. You can't go from not seeing Euron's fleet (forgetting about it) and losing a dragon to then pretty much conquering KL with one dragon alone. It's just too OP for me and that's one example. 

Suddenly they can't hit a single dragon, she's too fast for them, too skilled for them? Which one. Simply saying she caught them off guard doesn't make sense given their success rate on the last dragon.

I thought it was easy for them to kill Rhaegal because he was injured and unable to fly high or fast. Jon mentions the injury as the reason he isn’t riding Rhaegal.

Drogon dove from very high, hiding among the clouds, and descending at a steeper angle and faster than the weapons could handle. Once panic started it would be harder for the soldiers to aim. This is a relatively new weapon for them and they have not had years to practice.

The impact is probably exaggerated in both instances but is not horribly unbelievable in my opinion.

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Losing Jorah and Missandei I can sort of believe made her lose it, but I still think her behavior in episode 5 was out of character. At some point, I would have thought she'd stop, and just go straight for the keep.

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12 hours ago, Rhae_Valarie said:

I know a lot of people expected the Mad Daenerys twist but personally I was never one of them and this last episode has left me devastated, to say the least. I find myself desperately hoping that this is contrived for the purposes of the show and won’t come to pass in the books, but I have my doubts. Endings to something you love are always hard, but the ruination of one of my favorite characters in all of literature blindsided me.

 

what are your thoughts on Dany’s future and how do you feel about this development? 

Three words: read the books.

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11 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I feel bad for Dany fans.... its kinda hard to continue loving the woman after she did this. Other characters have done things that are pretty unforgiveable but managed to turn it round... killing hundreds of thousands innocent people is unredeemable me thinks.

No it isn't redeemable. However I blame the show runners. It made no sense the way it was done.  And was unnecesary. and it was way out of character

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21 minutes ago, Nihiloth90 said:

Losing Jorah and Missandei I can sort of believe made her lose it, but I still think her behavior in episode 5 was out of character. At some point, I would have thought she'd stop, and just go straight for the keep.

EXACTLY! Her going into a rage and flying to the keep to kill cersei even if it meant she would kill innocent people would have been believable and made sense. I didn't want to have her go mad but if they had her attack the red keep after the bell rang it would have gotten the point across and been believable. Instead they have her target innocent people for no reason. It was completly out of character.

 

Same with jon saying he loves her then pulling away and saying nothing. He did that when she was falling apart. He didn't say it was because she was his aunt or how if she burned KL to the ground the next day he couldn't love her. No he saw her losing it and gave her cold silence. That was not jon.

I am glad there is only one episode left because otherwise I would just wiki it after the show ended rather then watch more of it. If they make a sequel and have different writers and show runners I will give it a shot but if it has the same writers and show runners then I am staying away.

 

It just made no freaking sense!

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28 minutes ago, nara said:

I thought it was easy for them to kill Rhaegal because he was injured and unable to fly high or fast. Jon mentions the injury as the reason he isn’t riding Rhaegal.

Drogon dove from very high, hiding among the clouds, and descending at a steeper angle and faster than the weapons could handle. Once panic started it would be harder for the soldiers to aim. This is a relatively new weapon for them and they have not had years to practice.

The impact is probably exaggerated in both instances but is not horribly unbelievable in my opinion.

The dragon flew right by those ships at a glide. Yet not one bolt even nicked drogon. Normally I would wave it off but I am not gonna excuse them anymore. They ruined dany's character for shock and awe. No other reason just shock. It was out of character...BAH

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43 minutes ago, btfu806 said:

This will almost certainly happen in the books, but you know, actually done well and logically.

Her doing something horrible yeah I can see it. But something like this? no I think that if she had gone to the red keep and burned it down after the bells rang and killed cersei AND her human shields in a fit of rage would have made sense and is likely the equivilant of what GRRM will do. But wholesale slaughter for no reason...I don't see it

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I affirmed that Dany's arc is not about her becoming mad so, so, so loudly in 2013. If every poster which I contradicted would come now and say "told ya", and I'd get a coin for each "told ya", I'd be rich. 

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12 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Contrived for the show? No. Read this analysis of book Dany from 2013:

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/05/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-iv-a-darker-daenerys/

Come on, that crap's a good 25 pages. If you have something to say, say it. If there's something in that analysis you want to highlight, point to it.

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47 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

No, I don't accept that. I'm a good reader with a grad degree in fiction writing, I read the books closely, and I do not interpret them that way.

Admittedly, what happened in the show makes it more likely that the books will turn out similarly, but what we've heard about the congruence between the show and book endings has always been rather vague.

What I feel more certain of, based on how well everything is put together in the books, is that if Dany ultimately becomes a bloody tyrant, there will be a much more believable transition. What happened in the show was utter hogwash.

Her not being a "cuddly" queen would be believable and likely. However her turning into aery's no I don't see it at all. This wasn't the move of someone wanting power but someone just sick and twisted and killing people for no reason. Her attacking the red keep after the bells ring is one thing and likely similar to what we will see. But her burning thousands of innocent people for no reason no we likely won't get that. They did this for shock value and ruined her character in the process. Not just turned her evil but RUINED her character.

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11 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Come one, that is the one good thing about it. It really depicts the madness. Well done in the show.

She snaps because she realizes that she has nothing to gain, even after winning the battle. The people won't love her, Jon won't consummate the mutual love, she will be lonely and bitter. She freaks out. 

See the psychology of it. This is a great and believable arc. 

Oh please, you're exactly describing the "protagonist goes insane at the very end of the story" deus ex machina. That's horrible, beginner-like writing. Great and believable my left antenna.

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12 hours ago, Lynn-Ann said:

Yes, I am heartbroken for what is happening to Dany also.  She and Tyrion have been my favourites always.  I have no idea what her fate will be and it will definitely be the ultimate tragedy for me that she'll always be remembered as the "Mad Queen" and not for the many gracious acts she performed during her life quest and for her stoicism in rising above the cruelty and abuse she suffered as a young girl.   I was so very sad when Jon resisted her affectionate approach and made it clear he was rejecting an intimate relationship with her (Auntie or not).  I believe that is what broke her completely.  I am mourning her too...getting teary just writing this.  

Dude I've never been a huge Dany fan but that last rejection of Jon has had me moping all day. He broke her heart and mine at the same time :(

 

I'm actually team Dany pretty late in the game and hope she can turn it around.

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