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28 minutes ago, GOTFanatic said:

Sadly I think it does. Martin told Dumb & Dumber the ending and major plot points. The Night King, and Arya's killing of him, is of course made the hell up, but this is probably how it goes down in the books. Now undoubtedly the books will make her descent into madness more believable, but I still don't think it makes for good story. I mean imagine if Luke joined the Sith and replaced his father Darth Vader instead of transcending the trend and putting an end to them. 

Dany is Anakin, not Luke. :o

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3 hours ago, Platypus Rex said:

Did you notice the green explosions?  Those were (I suppose) King Aerys's wildfire caches going off, which he planted for the very purpose of destroying the city.  It is possible that, when this happens in the books, it will be handled so as to make the devastation seem less diabolically deliberate on Dany's part - not necessarily freeing her of blame, but still less diabolically deliberate (but yeah, I know it does not come across that way in the show at all). 

Or, it's made clear that she is effectively completing the task her father failed to do when Jamie stopped him.

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8 minutes ago, GOTFanatic said:

I've considered writing fantasy dramas myself, but I am so disturbed by this shit that I think I'll stick to comedic memes. 

If this has taught you anything, it's that if you write GOOD fantasy drama, with true literary merit, you will be flamed and hated. In this modern day, intellectual levels have fallen so low that Disney stories and Comic book yarns are all that people can hack.

I actually am seriously writing a novel myself. It's becoming clear to me that in staying true to my literary intentions, it will be ignored by the masses. I'm absolutely fine with that.

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It's not a surprise. Dany developed in that direction from first books: selfish, arrogant and cruel person. There was a debate about Dany 15 years ago on forum. I wasn't alone to dislike Dany. Of course, there were people who justified her arrogance and cruelty saying she is a hero, Azor Ahai and PtWP.  I just didn't see it. Sometimes who kills the dragon turns himself in the dragon. Methods used to reach the goal (free slaves) were horrible. She didn't think about consequences, and left cities in ruins. People said she is young. I didn't find it as a good reason to be so irresponsible. I would be surprised if Dothrakies, her army that destroyed cities and killed innocent people in Free cities wouldn't do the same in Westeros. Some of us thought that Dany is to bring the horror to Westeros, that she will be considered a foreign invader. Aegon Trag had sisters with their dragons who could stop him. Dany is alone. Nobody can slap her face and teach her a lesson.

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12 minutes ago, House Cambodia said:

 

I actually am seriously writing a novel myself. It's becoming clear to me that in staying true to my literary intentions, it will be ignored by the masses. I'm absolutely fine with that.

More EXPLOSIONS!!!!

explosions are AWESOME!

make sure my expectations are subverted! So do the opposite. Yay stooopid people win!!!

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16 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

But I strongly disagree with the comparisons of Jon, Ned and Robb to Dany. These three men never did anything comparable to Dany burning the slavers in Astapor or crucifying their families in Meereen.

I agree with you on this. She also was not the queen in Westeros at the time she burned the Tarlys. She was an usurper trying to become the queen, so it was not treason. I do admit, I did not like this episode on first watch, but I did some thinking, re-watched and now have a better appreciation for it. 

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6 minutes ago, TheMachine said:

I agree with you on this. She also was not the queen in Westeros at the time she burned the Tarlys. She was an usurper trying to become the queen, so it was not treason. I do admit, I did not like this episode on first watch, but I did some thinking, re-watched and now have a better appreciation for it. 

It was treason as the Tyrells were their liege lords and the Tarlys betrayed them to sack their castle for the Lannisters. 

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17 minutes ago, Minsc said:

It was treason as the Tyrells were their liege lords and the Tarlys betrayed them to sack their castle for the Lannisters. 

Not only that but the Tarly's (and Tyrells) actually stayed loyal to fought for the Targaryens during Robert’s rebellion.

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32 minutes ago, Roza Ahai said:

It's not a surprise. Dany developed in that direction from first books: selfish, arrogant and cruel person. There was a debate about Dany 15 years ago on forum. I wasn't alone to dislike Dany. Of course, there were people who justified her arrogance and cruelty saying she is a hero, Azor Ahai and PtWP.  I just didn't see it. Sometimes who kills the dragon turns himself in the dragon. Methods used to reach the goal (free slaves) were horrible. She didn't think about consequences, and left cities in ruins. People said she is young. I didn't find it as a good reason to be so irresponsible. I would be surprised if Dothrakies, her army that destroyed cities and killed innocent people in Free cities wouldn't do the same in Westeros. Some of us thought that Dany is to bring the horror to Westeros, that she will be considered a foreign invader. Aegon Trag had sisters with their dragons who could stop him. Dany is alone. Nobody can slap her face and teach her a lesson.

Westeros is no stranger to the horrors of war as they have committed countless atrocities themselves. No need for a "foreign invader" to remind them.

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20 minutes ago, Areisius said:

Westeros is no stranger to the horrors of war as they have committed countless atrocities themselves. No need for a "foreign invader" to remind them.

Yep. They have their own atrocities, and they don't need foreign. Their plate is full.

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1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

If this has taught you anything, it's that if you write GOOD fantasy drama, with true literary merit, you will be flamed and hated. In this modern day, intellectual levels have fallen so low that Disney stories and Comic book yarns are all that people can hack.

I actually am seriously writing a novel myself. It's becoming clear to me that in staying true to my literary intentions, it will be ignored by the masses. I'm absolutely fine with that.

Well the books aren't out yet so we don't know how things pan out exactly in them, and how the readers will respond. I love GRRM's style, and I actually enjoy how to properly portrays war and isn't afraid to kill off main characters. Many others feel the same of course, so what you are saying here is not true.

There are people who like simple and sugar coated, and others who like harsh and gritty, it's always been that way and there is nothing different now in the modern day. 

All that being said, I think sometimes what is real and ugly, doesn't always make the best story. As I gave above in an analogy, imagine if Luke was corrupted and joined the Sith instead of helping bring them down? Is that different from Disney everybody's happy bullshit? Of course it is, but it's not a good story, it's a pointless narrative because the character doesn't transcend the trend. 

I like to root for characters, that doesn't mean they have to be good two shoes all the time, but fantasy epic protagonists should be overall good / redeemable / redeemed, otherwise why care about them? Before Dany's decline (and especially before she came to Westeros) she was only one of two characters that was in a position of power who we could care about and who was suppose to be a good person, the other being Jon.

What's the honest fucking point of another mad Targaryen? The Mad King's daughter filled his shoes and then some, the end. Bravo, now let me shit out my pop corn. 

 

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6 minutes ago, GOTFanatic said:

Well the books aren't out yet so we don't know how things pan out exactly in them, and how the readers will respond. I love GRRM's style, and I actually enjoy how to properly portrays war and isn't afraid to kill off main characters. Many others feel the same of course, so what you are saying here is not true.

Hey, I'm agreeing with this. I am putting all my faith in GRRM coming out with 2 more masterpieces, so yes I will be both crestfallen and embarrassed if that doesn't come to pass. To be absolutely clear, my position is this - what we're seeing in the show is rushed, poor quality writing and unclear plot lines. Part of the reason for that is, I think, the limited skills of D&D themselves, but even in better hands any TV show or movie would have to disappoint. People are furious for GRRM taking so damn long, but it means he is not rushing to deadlines and, I trust, is taking his time to really take care with every detail - giving all his characters and plotlines space to breathe, to properly develop - or regress if that's the case with Dany. In the end, the book plotlines may not be what many people hoped for but at least they will be fully explicable in the way the TV show just isn't.

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13 minutes ago, GOTFanatic said:

As I gave above in an analogy, imagine if Luke was corrupted and joined the Sith instead of helping bring them down? Is that different from Disney everybody's happy bullshit? Of course it is, but it's not a good story, it's a pointless narrative because the character doesn't transcend the trend. 

As someone above noted, the better analogy with Dany is what really happened in SW - it was Anakin who joined the Sith. Now, that is actually a great example because what happened was the idea was brilliant but it was lost in bad writing, bad acting and the appalling distraction that was bloody JarJar Binks. Buried under all that is a brilliant anti-redemption arc which is the nearest equivalent I can think of to Daenerys.

That's actually the heart of the novel I'm writing. For a moment I panicked and thought, "Damn! After GoT every two-bit writer will be doing anti-redemption arcs", but then I realised no one followed up the Darth Vadar storyline, so I'm just carrying on and expecting my character to be hated too.

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6 hours ago, Green Knight said:

So you’re concerned that the impact of the war with the WW’s is that it will make her “feel more unloved”? That’s the impact that concerns you?! I’m kind of at a loss here. 

This is why I’ve never liked the character of DS in the least - books or show and why I have zero empathy for the Dany fans. She is an entitlement minded, self absorbed megalomaniac who exists in a vacuum and thinks the whole world revolves around her. Can’t wait to see her get hers...

My comment wasn't meant as sympathy for Dany. It's annoyance over how they have wasted so much story, including the Night King and Army of the Dead. There was no impact of the Army of the Dead other than "the North didn't love Dany so she turned to genocide". That's it. Most of the armies regenerated. Most of Westeros probably won't even believe it happened. Nobody important died. There's even enough wildlings left that they'll soon enough repopulate. Bran did nothing. It didn't have an impact on anyone's storyline past episode 3 except for Daenerys, and just to make her more sad. That's the problem. They built up a tremendous storyline and this is what they did with it. They just used it to make Daenerys sad and ultimately genocidal. It's awful on many levels.

If you respond with anymore "Dany fans suck" or think this is about Daenerys then don't bother. I've made it clear enough.

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12 minutes ago, theladyinspring said:

My comment wasn't meant as sympathy for Dany. It's annoyance over how they have wasted so much story, including the Night King and Army of the Dead. There was no impact of the Army of the Dead other than "the North didn't love Dany so she turned to genocide". That's it. Most of the armies regenerated. Most of Westeros probably won't even believe it happened. Nobody important died. There's even enough wildlings left that they'll soon enough repopulate. Bran did nothing. It didn't have an impact on anyone's storyline past episode 3 except for Daenerys, and just to make her more sad. That's the problem. They built up a tremendous storyline and this is what they did with it. They just used it to make Daenerys sad and ultimately genocidal. It's awful on many levels.

If you respond with anymore "Dany fans suck" or think this is about Daenerys then don't bother. I've made it clear enough.

Actually, I agree with pretty much everything you said. 

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Posted (edited)

I want to distinguish between 'wasted' and 'badly written'. A heck of a lot of the show is badly written, but I trust that when we get the book versions we'll see none of the storylines are wasted.

The whole theme, which required all sorts of meandering journeys, boils down to this:

The most famous line in the whole book and Tv series is Cercei saying to Ned,

"When you play the game of thrones, you win or you die."

The big resolution GRRM wants to tell us is that when you play the game of thrones, nobody wins; everybody dies.

 

Dany wanted to break the circle, but she was deluding herself as at the same time she saw it as her destiny to win the game. She wins nothing but ashes. She has to die. Jon never wanted to play the game - he won't, he'll duck out of it and live, as will others who had no interest int he game such as Bran, Arya, Sam, Brienne, Davos. Sansa's endgame is the unknown element in the final episode for me.

 

Edited by House Cambodia

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17 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

As someone above noted, the better analogy with Dany is what really happened in SW - it was Anakin who joined the Sith. Now, that is actually a great example because what happened was the idea was brilliant but it was lost in bad writing, bad acting and the appalling distraction that was bloody JarJar Binks. Buried under all that is a brilliant anti-redemption arc which is the nearest equivalent I can think of to Daenerys.

That's actually the heart of the novel I'm writing. For a moment I panicked and thought, "Damn! After GoT every two-bit writer will be doing anti-redemption arcs", but then I realised no one followed up the Darth Vadar storyline, so I'm just carrying on and expecting my character to be hated too.

Right but that happens in the episode 3, then we get the son Luke not following in the foot steps and instead fighting against him in episodes 4 - 6. 

In GOT the first we already had two bad apples : The Mad King and Viserys. The Dragon's daughter should have transcended the trend and gone the opposite way, otherwise what's the point? There is no Luke analog to her, she's the last Targaryen, it's all over. 

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1 hour ago, GOTFanatic said:

Right but that happens in the episode 3, then we get the son Luke not following in the foot steps and instead fighting against him in episodes 4 - 6. 

In GOT the first we already had two bad apples : The Mad King and Viserys. The Dragon's daughter should have transcended the trend and gone the opposite way, otherwise what's the point? There is no Luke analog to her, she's the last Targaryen, it's all over. 

Dany is not the last Targaryen. Jon is. He is younger than Dany. So, he is going the opposite way probably because he was raised by Ned Stark, not by Viserys. 

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