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18 hours ago, House Cambodia said:

Dany wanted to break the circle, but she was deluding herself as at the same time she saw it as her destiny to win the game. She wins nothing but ashes. She has to die. Jon never wanted to play the game - he won't, he'll duck out of it and live, as will others who had no interest int he game such as Bran, Arya, Sam, Brienne, Davos. Sansa's endgame is the unknown element in the final episode for me.

 

 

Good points.  Still, there has to be a tangible reason for Dany to die, a conflict.  That means there is another who is still playing the game.  That person should die as well, and there are still a few, Tyrion, Jon, Sansa.  They are all players, they should all die then.

 

 

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Copy-pasting what I wrote on the rant and rave thread:

 

Over the last few days I've been randomly shedding tears for Dany's character whenever I think about her. which actually surprises me since I have been hate watching this series since season 5, have been annoyed with ShowDany just as long and I've never done this ever for any fictional character. Heh.

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34 minutes ago, Hoo said:

 

Good points.  Still, there has to be a tangible reason for Dany to die, a conflict.  That means there is another who is still playing the game.  That person should die as well, and there are still a few, Tyrion, Jon, Sansa.  They are all players, they should all die then.

 

 

There are thousands of VERY tangible reasons why Dany should die. I think you are the only poster who can't see them. Tyrion is extremely implicated in the game of thrones - has been since S01. He has to die. As I say, Jon never wanted to be involved, and Sansa only wanted to play it as a silly 12-year-old wannabe princess so she ought to get a pass, I think.

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2 hours ago, Roza Ahai said:

Dany is not the last Targaryen. Jon is. He is younger than Dany. So, he is going the opposite way probably because he was raised by Ned Stark, not by Viserys. 

Oh right I forgot. But still, 3 mad Targaryens in a row is a too much. It should have been a Luke & Leia situation, she's his sister once removed after all, it would've made much better story I think. 

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, GOTFanatic said:

Oh right I forgot. But still, 3 mad Targaryens in a row is a too much. It should have been a Luke & Leia situation, she's his sister once removed after all, it would've made much better story I think. 

We already have that story in Star Wars. Martin probably didn't want to repeat. Rheagar was ok, his mother , too. So, 50-50.

I think Martin wanted to show how education is important for Targaryens. Aegon V was raised by Dunk, and Jon by Ned. When you have a teacher like Viserys it's tough to stay sane. Viserys is imprinted in her brain " You don't want to wake the dragon".  So, she woke up 3 dragons literally just to piss her brother (joking) and woke the thursty dragon in herself. "The IT is mine, my precious."

Edited by Roza Ahai

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1 hour ago, House Cambodia said:

There are thousands of VERY tangible reasons why Dany should die. 

Let's list them?  :-)

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On 5/13/2019 at 11:13 PM, Minsc said:

It was treason as the Tyrells were their liege lords and the Tarlys betrayed them to sack their castle for the Lannisters. 

Again, incorrect. The Tyrell’s committed Treason. The Tarly’s did not. Ceresei is their Queen. Tyrell’s their lords. 

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5 minutes ago, TheMachine said:

Again, incorrect. The Tyrell’s committed Treason. The Tarly’s did not. Ceresei is their Queen. Tyrell’s their lords. 

Nope, the Tyrells never pledged any loyalty to Cersei.  Even ignoring Cersei's murder of Mace, Loras, and Maergery any ties between House Tyrell and the Lannisters were dissolved when Tommen took the plunge. 

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On 5/13/2019 at 10:23 AM, Rhae_Valarie said:

I know a lot of people expected the Mad Daenerys twist but personally I was never one of them and this last episode has left me devastated, to say the least. I find myself desperately hoping that this is contrived for the purposes of the show and won’t come to pass in the books, but I have my doubts. Endings to something you love are always hard, but the ruination of one of my favorite characters in all of literature blindsided me.

 

what are your thoughts on Dany’s future and how do you feel about this development? 

I think it totally suck. I really wanted her to actually win and perhaps not lose everything and everyone. Or be clever enough to immediately marry Aejon when learning about R+L. Letting him ride Rhaegal is a bigger share of power than his arse on the IT ever could be.

 

I'm onboard with her snapping and burning KL, because it was the only thing she could do to survive. Bunch of schemers taking their sweet time to surrender must remind her of the soft conquest of Mereen and how all that worked out. Also it was set up by Cersei (provocations of the worst kind and 1 million human shields) in a way that would have broken most people into rage mode and not just about Dany being mad or evil.

 

Leak spoiler:

Spoiler

I'm not onboard with Jon or Arya killing her for it though. I refuse to believe they are as ungrateful pricks as all that. Dany's worst losses was taken in defending them from extermination and they repay it by knifing her? WTF :crying::frown5::shocked::tantrum:

 

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17 hours ago, Roza Ahai said:

Dany is not the last Targaryen. Jon is. He is younger than Dany. So, he is going the opposite way probably because he was raised by Ned Stark, not by Viserys. 

Isn't he like a half-year older though?

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On 5/13/2019 at 10:44 AM, House Cambodia said:

Contrived for the show? No. Read this analysis of book Dany from 2013:

https://meereeneseblot.wordpress.com/2013/10/05/untangling-the-meereenese-knot-part-iv-a-darker-daenerys/

Posting a link is never an argument.

Now, I actually read the link. It says Dany realizes war is tough. Okay. How does that translate to personally burning thousands of innocent people to death, instead of moving on to the Red Keep to kill her enemy? How does it translate to making her life-long goal of winning Westeros far more difficult?

And try as the blogger might, by picking bits from the book here and there, he can't get rid of the fact that Daenerys is a deeply moral person. She realizes that in a world of war, she has to wage war. She is still extremely moral. In the TV show, she turns down the offer of free ships for travel to Westeros, because she wants to stay and defend the former slaves against the approaching slaver army. Even though she has no control over the dragons, no Dothraki army, a small chance of winning. She sacrifices her own life-long dream for the people.

How do you claim that she was a person who would always walk all over the people to get what she wants, after she did the exact opposite?

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Posted (edited)
48 minutes ago, Jarl Halstein said:

How do you claim that she was a person who would always walk all over the people to get what she wants, after she did the exact opposite?

I'm not claiming that. You seem to struggle with the key literary concept of the dynamic character. Any literature needs its dynamic characters  - i.e. characters who CHANGE over time. Usually, they change in a positive direction, like Ebenezer Scrooge or Han Solo, but a brave subversive author might give us one who regresses.

GRRM gives us this character who is initially deeply moral and idealistic, but who struggles with the realities of politics including the realities of ruling over unwilling, self-centred subjects. The discerning reader is expected to pick up on the small but growing clues that she does have darker sensibilities within her, that in the 'right' circumstances might develop into traits that overwhelm her better nature. The blog takes us to the latest stage in the books, to ADWD, which is still quite early in her journey. I expect that further character development to be skillfully realised by GRRM in the forthcoming books; in the meantime, we got a botched delivery by D&D.

If you're not a book reader or don't get literary nuances, we have a strong movie example of such character regression in Anakin Skywalker's story. No one says, 'He was a good boy, it makes no sense that he does a sudden heel-turn into Darth Vadar'. Daenry'sstory is a much more complex, subtle and fascinating version of that - or will be once we see it in literary form.

Edited by House Cambodia

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On 5/13/2019 at 5:43 AM, Nerevanin said:

Dany was always going to become a mad queen. There have been hints about it since the first book / season. So I'm really not surprised that it happened. What I am surprised about is that so many people are upset about it and didn't see it coming.

Although I admit that the change of Dany from S7 to the current Mad Queen is quite fast, I think that D&D did quite a good job in making her (not so) slowly sink into madness. It wasn't like that Dany was the biggest good girl around and than *snaps fingers* she is the mad queen for no reason. There were several reasons why her mental health became so fragile: she lost her army, 2 of her dragons, Missandei, Jon doesn't want to be with her when she is his aunt, people (Varys and Sansa) are betraying her, the smallfolk don't love her as she thought, Jon might steal her throne. No wonder that all this made her mental heath quite fragile.

:agree:

The hints were there re. Dany from season 1. 

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, Jarl Halstein said:

...

And try as the blogger might, by picking bits from the book here and there, he can't get rid of the fact that Daenerys is a deeply moral person. She realizes that in a world of war, she has to wage war. She is still extremely moral. In the TV show, she turns down the offer of free ships for travel to Westeros, because she wants to stay and defend the former slaves against the approaching slaver army. Even though she has no control over the dragons, no Dothraki army, a small chance of winning. She sacrifices her own life-long dream for the people.

...

Dany reneged on the deal when buying the Unsullied and ended up burning the salesperson. That does not sound like a deeply moral person.

If anything, as a young girl and then a young woman, Dany was confused about how to go about her business. The blog makes it clear she eventually decided her dragon nature is the way to deal with things. That choice, combined with the loss of just about everything she held dear, culminated in her choice to commit war crimes. Very believable for her story arc and a fitting end to what is a tragic character.

Edited by Ras1983

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On 5/13/2019 at 10:30 AM, Rhae_Valarie said:

 

just curious, can you picture any scenario in which Dany’s burning of KL is more morally grey than appears in the show? For instance, could it be compared to Aegon the conqueror’s burning of Harrenhall or do you think the civilian population puts them in different categories?

Yes.  It could have been portrayed as a botched surrender.  The Lannisters agree to lay down their arms, and she accepts this, with great reluctance.  Then, one of the Lannister archers lets fly, either deliberately or accidentally, injuring her, or killing one of her entourage.  She concludes that the surrender is a sham, and orders a massacre.

Or they don't surrender, and keep fighting from Kings Landing's buildings.  Dany's forces start slaughtering everything in sight, while she torches the city to finish off resistance.

Both those scenarios would have been hideous, but  less hideous than what took place.

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On 5/13/2019 at 1:23 AM, Rhae_Valarie said:

I know a lot of people expected the Mad Daenerys twist but personally I was never one of them and this last episode has left me devastated, to say the least. I find myself desperately hoping that this is contrived for the purposes of the show and won’t come to pass in the books, but I have my doubts.

D&D's error wasn't that they made a twist they shouldn't have made, their error was not building up to her madness more obviously, in such a way so as to ensure the average viewer could see it coming. For example, a few scenes here and there of her talking to a hallucinatory Viserys would have clubbed it over everyone's heads nicely.

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2 hours ago, SeanF said:

Yes.  It could have been portrayed as a botched surrender.  The Lannisters agree to lay down their arms, and she accepts this, with great reluctance.  Then, one of the Lannister archers lets fly, either deliberately or accidentally, injuring her, or killing one of her entourage.  She concludes that the surrender is a sham, and orders a massacre.

Or they don't surrender, and keep fighting from Kings Landing's buildings.  Dany's forces start slaughtering everything in sight, while she torches the city to finish off resistance.

Both those scenarios would have been hideous, but  less hideous than what took place.

Well, I'm assuming her book end is similarly tragic, where she makes a conscious decision to 'burn it all'...the show didn't do enough groundwork for such a decision to feel reasonable, but that this is the reason why it is presented that way, not a mistake or due to confusion but a decision she makes. 

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So George will have two mad queens in ASOAIF, I guess one will have to go sooner rather than later. Unless Dany isn't mad queen in the books just in the show. Consider all the subplots from the books that have been dropped for this to happen Aegon, Jon Conninton the Dornish etc. The faith millitant issue is still Cersei burden. I think Dany is the books will carve out a kingdom in Essos - but will be compelled to give aid to Westeros and she will be the one who decides which King sits the iron throne.

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