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TeethGrinder

So how/will that go down in the books?

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32 minutes ago, adiman83 said:

Martin puts too much accent on her memory of Jorah telling her how dragons don't plant trees.

Good reference. 

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8 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Good reference. 

I found the exact quote:

Quote

You are the blood of the dragon. Dragons plant no trees. Remember that. Remember who you are, what you were made to be. Remember your words.

 

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1 hour ago, TeethGrinder said:

I think the burning/destruction  of Kings Landing is way too big a point for the showrunners to just invent. I think that turn from Dany, one of the two main characters is way too significant to not be a part of the book layout they recieved.

Just because it was a season centerpiece doesn't mean it has to be from the books. Hardhome, the Battle of the Bastards and the Wight Hunt were all season centerpieces, but they more than likely won't play out like that - or at all - in the books. Dany becoming a villain, or at least an antagonist for Jon, Tyrion, Arya and Sansa, is probably set in stone. The how, the why and even the where can easily be different. The exact arc that leads her there will almost certainly be different, more gradual and nuanced, and the exact depth of her "madness" might be different too. King's Landing is also probably doomed, but I wouldn't be so sure it's by Dany's hand.

If we take apart the puzzle pieces and try to see where they would fit in the books, we can trace them back to several potential plot points:

  • The burning of King's Landing is foreshadowed for Cersei. She's interested in wildfire. She burns the Tower of the Hand and enjoys it. We know she will ally herself with Euron, and Euron's partner is associated with "pale fire" in Aeron's visions. Euron himself will likely get a dragon, which he might turn on the city as fAegon assaults it.
  • Missandei's death will probably happen in Norvos. There is subtle set up for Mellario's vengeance for Quentin. Dany needs to head west, but George said she and Tyrion will be apart for most of the book - it makes sense that she splits her armies and he will take Volantis while she takes Norvos. One of the city's most important features are its bells. Now, that doesn't mean that she will be triggered by the bells, but they will likely feature in the battle. Likewise, the burning of the city could be in part accidental. At this point in the story, Dany wouldn't be full on insane, but destroying one of the nine free cities would tarnish her image pretty badly. She might feel like she needs to embrace fear over love out of necessity after this point.
  • Another character that might actually be triggered by bells is Jon Connington, who fought and lost in the Battles of the Bells. Now, he doesn't have a real dragon, but he has resolved to be more ruthless. Bells signaling the murder of innocents by a self-styled savior and rightful monarch could be a nod to some part of fAegon's campaign.

 

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1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Wrong. Simply wrong.

GRRM and DD promised the fundamental issues will be the same. Details will be different.

Daenerys snapping and destroying King's Landing is fundamental. Don't hold false hopes. Be realistic. 

The thing is that at the moment it is much more realistic if she burns meereen. 

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1 hour ago, divica said:

There is no clue anywhere that Danny will kill thousands of innocents for no reason. Has anyone that saw the show or read the books think she will burn children? 

Come on.. 

I think the series have replaced Quaithe with Missandei, yes both have been in the series but in terms of their roles I believe the latter became Dany’s main advisor.... she’s lost a dragon, her main advisor and her closest friend bar Greyworm... it’s enough to make her think “sod it” and decide to obliterate everything. I think Dany has suffered from people not being willing to accept her. Without her army Jon would not have defeated the night king, despite Arya’s intervention Dany’s sheer loss of men and a dragon pretty much left her with little choice to take drastic action.... she has tried to be fair with Cersei but she failed to comply, beheading Missandei. 

Whereas the writing has cut a lot of corners it does make sense, Dany has been made to feel isolated, which is probably the only way Cersei would defeat her, by making Dany become her own worst enemy. It’s not too dissimilar to Aegon the Conqueror, who took Balerion higher than the clouds to burn cities to the ground. 

Dany has been backed into a corner and forced to defend herself, and that’s exactly what has happened. Some of the writing was shady at best for example Jamie and Cersei was a dreadful part, and Euron was nothing like the character in the books. There’s more to come (one more) maybe explanation to come with it? 

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1 hour ago, nborders said:

It won’t happen in the books, because the final book will never be written. And that’s the most frustrating thing about all this. 

If the books even remotely have the same ending as that shit show then I desperately hope they will never be written - or that I will be no longer around to read them. No ending is definitely much better than an ending that doesn't make any sense.

Because even a variation of this nonsense would be nonsensical in the books. And this is not just the Dany nonsense, but all the other crap we got in the last couple of seasons, too. I mean, just think of that Jaime crap.

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1 hour ago, TeethGrinder said:

I think the burning/destruction  of Kings Landing is way too big a point for the showrunners to just invent. I think that turn from Dany, one of the two main characters is way too significant to not be a part of the book layout they recieved.

So how will it go down?

It felt very forced in the show. Cheap even that Dany suddenly snapped. Obviously the books will have more time to flesh it out but I think the circumstances will be significantly different.

I think the people of Kings Landing & Westeros will reject Dany. They’ll love fAegon instead, and watching them worship him using her name, on top of all the betrayal’s she’s destined to have will be enough to push her over the top. Especially if she’s already saved them or attempted to save them from the Others. She will see it as another betrayal from the people.

This was the most staggering part of her turn in the show. She had no reason at all to burn the civilians. There’s not even loose tie between them and Cersei or even them and Jon. They don’t care for her and don’t know who he is. Even someone evil should be relatively indifferent to their fate. If her goal is for them to fear her I think burning the Red Keep would have been enough.

I agree that the burning of King's Landing probably is the "final twist" that GRRM have D&D. If not that then the consequences of Dany's actions - such as Jon ultimately killing her to stop her from doing something else he cannot stand (My current guess is she will state she is going to put Sansa, Arya, and Bran on trial for treason).

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1 hour ago, Tygett Lannister said:

D&D have no say in books story. And we all know we can trust GRRM as much as Lord Baelish. He keeps contradicting himself when asked about it. 

Seems to me that he would be kinda foolish to have same ending in books. More mystery = more sales. Will be similar imo, but the story will close the plot holes and make sense. If we ever get the full story. I absolutely believe we will get WoW. Less hopeful about ADoS. Unless he is working on both, concurrently. That is my hope.

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35 minutes ago, TNTW said:

Seems to me that he would be kinda foolish to have same ending in books. More mystery = more sales. Will be similar imo, but the story will close the plot holes and make sense. If we ever get the full story. I absolutely believe we will get WoW. Less hopeful about ADoS. Unless he is working on both, concurrently. That is my hope.

Even if we get ADoS by some miracle, I don’t think he can conclude the series in only two more books and will need an 8th to wrap it up. 

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What will go down in the books?

 

There can't be too many people thinking the books will actually be written now? Nothing. There won't be any more books. I said it about three years ago and was shouted down by people saying that TWoW would be out later that year. I still say it.

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Posted (edited)

Well, in the books there will be:

  • two dragons more
  • some numbers of elephants
  • fAegon
  • with his army
  • a Dornish plot that actually makes sense, possibly with Arianne married to "Aegon" and dornish people involved in the rumble, possibly with some Dayne/Darkstar things actually happening
  • Varys and Illyrio plot will actually not be cast aside as meaningless
  • a very different Euron with different endgames
  • possibly the Hightowers will finally make their move (you don't put a loaded gun in the Citadel if no character thinks about using it by the third act)
  • the northern will be way more depleted after a quite longer long night (years, not minutes during a single episode)
  • Arya will be a lot darker and not take a million steps walk to the Red Keep just to change her mind out of the blue at the last step (I mean, she will have a character arc developing) Martin will be able to engeneer some point of view in the town without having the Hound to postpose his "do not become like me" monologue from Winterfell's doors to the painted patio.
  • Jaime will be less useless (can you tell me one thing that Jaime actually accomplished in the whole of the tc show?)
  • Sansa and the knights of the Vale will have a part as such, and not simplified into "Jon's northeners that don't follow Jon's orders".
  • Jon's troops, if any, will have strong personal ties with him and actually (in majority) paying attention to what he sais and orders in battle.
  • Some attention (and funny way of becoming true) will be paid to the profecies - not all of them but at least some.
  • I may be forgetting a lot.
Edited by mediterraneo
typos

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3 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Wrong. Simply wrong.

GRRM and DD promised the fundamental issues will be the same. Details will be different.

Daenerys snapping and destroying King's Landing is fundamental. Don't hold false hopes. Be realistic. 

I agree.  This is definitive, it was the last twist.  She will go crazy and yes KL will burn.

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2 hours ago, divica said:

The thing is that at the moment it is much more realistic if she burns meereen. 

She may do that as well.  Now that we know her quest will fail and she will become an antagonist there is no reason for the author to have to find a way to fix Meereen.  Dany can burn it down.  

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Some completely different story, most likely. A story where people actually make sense.

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19 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

She may do that as well.  Now that we know her quest will fail and she will become an antagonist there is no reason for the author to have to find a way to fix Meereen.  Dany can burn it down.  

And I can t accept that she will become jon's love interest just so that she goes madder than aerys and he has to kill her... 

This happening within 1 or 2 books is just awful... 

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Just now, divica said:

And I can t accept that she will become jon's love interest just so that she goes madder than aerys and he has to kill her... 

This happening within 1 or 2 books is just awful... 

I'm not sure they will have a romantic relationship in the books, it may be an alliance.  One book is enough to show her downward spiral.  As others have said, Dany has been doing questionable things from the very beginning, but it was all masked because for the most part, the terrible things she does are to people even more terrible.  

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Just now, Cas Stark said:

I'm not sure they will have a romantic relationship in the books, it may be an alliance.  One book is enough to show her downward spiral.  As others have said, Dany has been doing questionable things from the very beginning, but it was all masked because for the most part, the terrible things she does are to people even more terrible.  

If they have an alliance and Jon ends up with Val and the wildlings or a forced marriage and on the IT I could accept it. 

But they can t fall in love and end the story like this... 

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2 minutes ago, divica said:

If they have an alliance and Jon ends up with Val and the wildlings or a forced marriage and on the IT I could accept it. 

But they can t fall in love and end the story like this... 

What feels more like GRRM is that they would meet, they would form an alliance, there would be mutual respect, you could even envision it would go the way of Ned and Cat and turn to love...because unlike the show, their marriage will be an obvious solution...but once Jon finds out she is his aunt the marriage won't happen.  That's my guess.

Jon's not getting Val either, LOL.  In all probability, he will refuse the Iron Throne and go North.  There will be some hint that the WW weren't destroyed, which will make sense in the books and Jon will rebuild the NW and the wall.

I didn't think this episode was bad, but then, having read the leaks I've been already prepared for Dany to go mad.

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6 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

What feels more like GRRM is that they would meet, they would form an alliance, there would be mutual respect, you could even envision it would go the way of Ned and Cat and turn to love...because unlike the show, their marriage will be an obvious solution...but once Jon finds out she is his aunt the marriage won't happen.  That's my guess.

Jon's not getting Val either, LOL.  In all probability, he will refuse the Iron Throne and go North.  There will be some hint that the WW weren't destroyed, which will make sense in the books and Jon will rebuild the NW and the wall.

I didn't think this episode was bad, but then, having read the leaks I've been already prepared for Dany to go mad.

I just can t see grrm ending the targs like that. It could happen.... But I Don t like it

 The story feels so much like some sort of targ restoration... And even if the ww aren t destroyed in the books they wont appear for thousands of years. The NW is basically useless with most of the wildlings south of the wall... 

And I doubt they would want to go back north in the middle of winter... 

At worst I think Jon will end up as king in the north and the far north and integrate the wildlings in the north to compensate all the deaths in the north. 

 

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Meereen actually has to burn for plot reasons. For Dany and especially her people there to cut their ties with the place it has all got to hell. Astapor is already gone, and especially Yunkai has to be destroyed as well. If those cities are not destroyed then slavery will rise again and the people there won't simply have no good reason to go.

I mean, there are still slaves there, in Tyrion's chapters, who like being slaves. This attitude has to go for there to be any sort of change or even development.

And I'm sure most of the ruling class of Meereen and pretty much all the free Yunkai'i will be killed in the process of that. That's likely going to be much more bloody than anything we got in the show so far.

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