Jump to content
TeethGrinder

So how/will that go down in the books?

Recommended Posts

2 hours ago, nborders said:

Even if we get ADoS by some miracle, I don’t think he can conclude the series in only two more books and will need an 8th to wrap it up. 

I wouldn't be shocked by this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I wasn't going for the people turning on her, more her remembering how the people of KL cheered as her father was overthrown while she and her brother were carted off to Essos, possibly the bell sounding brought back those memories and ignited a rage towards KL and it's people.. all of them.

She wasn't even born when that happened. She was born at dragon stone. She has absolutely no memory of westero's until she came back. She was shipped away with her brother right after she was born. So there was no "remembering the people cheering".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No this was the show runners pure and simple. If she had gone at the red keep and killed the civilians there in order to kill cersei THAT would have been believable. Instead they turn her full psychopath and shatter her character. If those show runners touch another script I won't go near that movie or show or whatever they write or have any part in. It goes directly against her character. Again if she had still gone to the red keep and burned it down after they surrendered that would be one thing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, snow is the man said:

No this was the show runners pure and simple. If she had gone at the red keep and killed the civilians there in order to kill cersei THAT would have been believable. Instead they turn her full psychopath and shatter her character. If those show runners touch another script I won't go near that movie or show or whatever they write or have any part in. It goes directly against her character. Again if she had still gone to the red keep and burned it down after they surrendered that would be one thing.

This x infinity

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, the tower of albion said:

https://www.reddit.com/r/freefolk/comments/bnv3ie/ian_mcelhinney_barristan_selmy_saying_that_grrm/

Do you think there is any truth to this or is he just entertaing the fans at the convention?

I really hope so. I guess we will know soon since the last episode is next sunday. If it is true then I will be preordering those books so fast my wallet will catch fire.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Wrong. Simply wrong.

GRRM and DD promised the fundamental issues will be the same. Details will be different.

Daenerys snapping and destroying King's Landing is fundamental. Don't hold false hopes. Be realistic. 

You are giving them more credit than they have earned.

GRRM told them what he knew of the endings of the main characters, but he had no idea how the show runners implemented them until it aired, and couldn't possibly have done anything more than speculate that they would generally hit the main points of the main characters. Dany burning KL seems likely. Cersei still being in power when that happens seems unlikely, and IMO, Dany suddenly riding down tens or hundreds of thousands of innocents with her dragons without a great deal more set up to her losing it seems implausible.

I could have bought her sentencing Varys, and Tyrion, and perhaps even Jon for their perceived betrayals and treasons, whether executing them outright, or giving them options of trial by combat, reforming the Night's Watch and giving them the option of taking the black, or giving them the choice of execution. It might have made her less likable, but I would have at least been able to see where she was coming from. Turning her dragons indiscriminately on the smallfolk was completely inexplicable, and her unearned "madness" did nothing to make it  believable.

They had more time and money and story build up than in any other season, and they used all three more poorly than any other season, creating by far the worst season of the series when it should have been the best. They were in such a rush to end the series and rush onto other projects that they just phoned in the last season of the series.

I long ago accepted that the series is different than and inferior to the books, and I long ago stopped expecting it to live up to the books, and even to its own internal logic. There are things I can enjoy about the show, for what it is, but there are so many things they have done poorly that had nothing to do with budget or time. At a certain point there is no getting around the fact that they have just written and handled a lot of important things very poorly, and it is hard to understand when this is their job year round.

Nobody can make a convincing argument that Dany's turn to murdering masses of innocent people was earned. It wasn't. The loneliness and betrayal she experienced and felt do not believably translate to murdering masses of innocents. Dany turning on some of her noble allies after their betrayals and treasons, whether actual or perceived, could have worked. This didn't.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, TeethGrinder said:

I think the burning/destruction  of Kings Landing is way too big a point for the showrunners to just invent. I think that turn from Dany, one of the two main characters is way too significant to not be a part of the book layout they recieved.

So how will it go down?

It felt very forced in the show. Cheap even that Dany suddenly snapped. Obviously the books will have more time to flesh it out but I think the circumstances will be significantly different.

I think the people of Kings Landing & Westeros will reject Dany. They’ll love fAegon instead, and watching them worship him using her name, on top of all the betrayal’s she’s destined to have will be enough to push her over the top. Especially if she’s already saved them or attempted to save them from the Others. She will see it as another betrayal from the people.

This was the most staggering part of her turn in the show. She had no reason at all to burn the civilians. There’s not even loose tie between them and Cersei or even them and Jon. They don’t care for her and don’t know who he is. Even someone evil should be relatively indifferent to their fate. If her goal is for them to fear her I think burning the Red Keep would have been enough.

I think we’ll never know since he’s never going to finish the series...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Bael's Bastard said:

You are giving them more credit than they have earned.

GRRM told them what he knew of the endings of the main characters, but he had no idea how the show runners implemented them until it aired, and couldn't possibly have done anything more than speculate that they would generally hit the main points of the main characters. Dany burning KL seems likely. Cersei still being in power when that happens seems unlikely, and IMO, Dany suddenly riding down tens or hundreds of thousands of innocents with her dragons without a great deal more set up to her losing it seems implausible.

I could have bought her sentencing Varys, and Tyrion, and perhaps even Jon for their perceived betrayals and treasons, whether executing them outright, or giving them options of trial by combat, reforming the Night's Watch and giving them the option of taking the black, or giving them the choice of execution. It might have made her less likable, but I would have at least been able to see where she was coming from. Turning her dragons indiscriminately on the smallfolk was completely inexplicable, and her unearned "madness" did nothing to make it  believable.

They had more time and money and story build up than in any other season, and they used all three more poorly than any other season, creating by far the worst season of the series when it should have been the best. They were in such a rush to end the series and rush onto other projects that they just phoned in the last season of the series.

I long ago accepted that the series is different than and inferior to the books, and I long ago stopped expecting it to live up to the books, and even to its own internal logic. There are things I can enjoy about the show, for what it is, but there are so many things they have done poorly that had nothing to do with budget or time. At a certain point there is no getting around the fact that they have just written and handled a lot of important things very poorly, and it is hard to understand when this is their job year round.

Nobody can make a convincing argument that Dany's turn to murdering masses of innocent people was earned. It wasn't. The loneliness and betrayal she experienced and felt do not believably translate to murdering masses of innocents. Dany turning on some of her noble allies after their betrayals and treasons, whether actual or perceived, could have worked. This didn't.

well said! I agree completely.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, it's good see a topic using the show to know what may happen in the books. I have wished to do this sinse the Shirren's sacrifice, but I didn't know where to write. So, thank you. 

I don't see this happening, no with the clues Martin gave us. And some characters don't get to to what they do on show. Cersei is pretty donkey and Euron is pretty dangerous. We know that a character from the show is a mix of several characters from the books and the events, as well. So, what may happen in the books?

In the first place, I reckon we will have more than 2 books. It's much story to tell in just 2 ones. In second, I believe that the youger and prettier queen is not Dany. If she was, Cersei survived to Euron and Cersei is not capable. And Dany still needs to solve her problems in Slave's Bay and to find ships to go to Westeros. It may took some time. 

No, IMO, ththe younger and prettier queen is Lynesse Hightower, the queen of the love and beauty. In book 4, one of the Hightower's siblings was to Lys to ask help to her to win Euron. What happens: she helps, 'couse this is the time to come back to Westeros. But when she finds Euron, they become lovers. She is the woman in the Aerion's vision.  She is the woman that Cersei needs to know, as well. What d'you think what will happen when Euron conquer KL? I see sacks, rapes and sacrifices in the septum and Cersei losing the Iron Throne. But I also see the other queen, a Hightower that has lived in Lys using Qyburn to make experiences with Cersei, turn the Lannister in another Reek, taking away from Cersei her beauty and Lannister proud, making Cersei to beg the Gods to send the valonqar to kill her.

So, when Dany comes she will find Stannis with Davos, Melisandre, and the support of the North, Vale and Trident, thanks Sansa. Aegon will have Varys and the support of Stornslands, Dorne and part of the Reach. And Euron and Lynesse will Iron's Slands, Westlands and the other part of the Reach. Oh, and Dragonstone. Dany will have a huge army and a huge fleet as well. And 3 dragons. Her council will have Marwin as Maester, Tyrion as Hand, her own husband Victarion in charge of the Iron Fleet. 

But her army has people from different cultures and this may a problem for Dany. She needs harmony between her allies. Tyrion will be bitter and he be playing with Dany and Aegon. It was this I understood Moqorro saw in his flames. And Vicatarion is donkey. 

Dany have huge army and fleet, but all are foreigns or cruel. And Dany is with the prophecies about betrayals in his mind and the notice of Qarthe to not to trust in the griff, the dark flame, the lion, etc. 

So, she may have an allegiance with Aegon, but she will never believe him or whoever. And to show she is the only Targaryen, she will make Aegon attacks KL first. So, when Aegon is midst the fight, Dany attacks the army and fleet of Aegon and Lynesse at the same time. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My two cents:

I think it might happen in the books (versus Aegon). The thing is, while I understand that everything she went through made her snap- who wouldn't - I don't think she would just kill hundreds of thousands of civilians because of it. Making her do that in this episode was too much imo. If she burns the city, it would be the Red Keep or to end a battle quickly. Dany will be tested; she is after all an invader who wants to conquer a whole continent. Like all other conquerors she will be faced with difficult decisions. But why would this mean she's ''evil''? Can't she feel remorse and guilt over her decisions? Aren't others like Jon and Stannis faced with similarly difficult decisions (or will be)?  I don't believe she will become a Mad Queen in the books....that's not her character. But that's how they're framing it in the show (since what she did is pretty unforgivable). She's a Targ, she's crazy and evil. Very rushed writing as well, with no buildup or consistency.   

So generally I think Dany will be tested but she will persevere and come back from her darkest moments. And I guess that's when the Others come in. I believe that the war for the dawn will happen after this in the books. And there I think she will have a crucial role and possibly die during it (but not killed by Jon...god how i hate that lol). 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, Lady Anna said:

My two cents:

I think it might happen in the books (versus Aegon). The thing is, while I understand that everything she went through made her snap- who wouldn't - I don't think she would just kill hundreds of thousands of civilians because of it. Making her do that in this episode was too much imo. If she burns the city, it would be the Red Keep or to end a battle quickly. Dany will be tested; she is after all an invader who wants to conquer a whole continent. Like all other conquerors she will be faced with difficult decisions. But why would this mean she's ''evil''? Can't she feel remorse and guilt over her decisions? Aren't others like Jon and Stannis faced with similarly difficult decisions (or will be)?  I don't believe she will become a Mad Queen in the books....that's not her character. But that's how they're framing it in the show (since what she did is pretty unforgivable). She's a Targ, she's crazy and evil. Very rushed writing as well, with no buildup or consistency.   

So generally I think Dany will be tested but she will persevere and come back from her darkest moments. And I guess that's when the Others come in. I believe that the war for the dawn will happen after this in the books. And there I think she will have a crucial role and possibly die during it (but not killed by Jon...god how i hate that lol). 

I think this would be much more interesting.

Like she goes to the dark side but with the threat of the others people need to forge an aliance with her. Then while fighting together they end up achieving some compromise to live in peace after the others are defeated.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The books will more Song of Ice and Fire - we can get to see gods and destiny and elemental forces, all that. It will be easy to show what drives the main characters; it could be something like this:

Dany drinks too deep from the cup of fire - too many wars, too much blood, too many dragons - and finally her god reaches her. She becomes full-on AA, the puppet of Rhllor, his fiery hand. Not mad, but possessed. Not plot-armoured, but protected.

Something similar with a Stark or two, and problem solved: we have our grand finale, with both the human-heart-in-conflict-with itself, and the ultimate ice/fire showdown. (Nearly everybody dies. Jon and Arya save the day. :dunno:)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

Mad Queen Dany will happen in the book, in a different way. Interestingly, I think the turn will be similar to the arguments that many of her fanboys use in trying to defend her action in the show. Many of Dany's fans try to defend her action by pointing the strategic necessity of it. However this argument has be debunked by after episode interview in which the showrunners said that what Dany did was not premeditated but in a fit of rage. She snapped. End of story. Not part of any tactic or strategic thinking. She was just throwing tantrum.  

Unlike the show, the "mad" in Mad Queen Dany in the books will not mean clinically insane.  In the book most likely Dany will commit the same atrocities under a sane & sound mind as part of her calculated strategy after coming to the conclusion at the end of ADWD that being soft doesn't work & she must go full Fire and Blood. The end result is probably the same that she will end up dying and failing in both cases, but unlike in the show, which seems not to have any message behind this & just happen because the plot demand it, in the books the message would be very clear: The world doesn't work this way.  GRRM's narrative seems to have the goal of debunking the notion that being ruthless is a necessary trait of a leader.  

In the world of ASOIAF it seems that being good or being terrible will not save you from horrible death, as can be seen in the cases of Ned & Tywin. However, it is often said by fans that that while being good might cause you to die, it is better for your people and the world in the long term. See how while Ned Stark is dead, people are still fighting for his legacy & his children are setting up to be among some of the major power players. On the other hand Tywin Lannister got his family destroyed & his family's legacy implode.

I think GRRM is hammering the same message with Dany that he is doing with Tywin. Both are people who come into conclusion that being nice isn't worth it after some bad experience in their formative years, therefore choosing to play hard ball.The difference between the two is that Tywin's turn happened in the backstory & he is already ruthless when the story started. With Dany we follow her growth & journey & how she turns into the ruthless Mad Queen at the end.  GRRM through his writing is trying to show us why this thinking is wrong, therefore he chooses to give bad ending to characters who think that way.

This is probably hard to accept for some portion of ASOIAF & GoT fandom, as the books & the show seems to attract people who idolize Machiavellian thinking &  like to watch cutthroat power play & think being good or being honorable is being dumb. Just look at the people in this forum who will argue to their last breath to defend Tywin or defending Dany's action in the last episode as something that is out of necessity.  Unfortunately for them, ASOIAF is not the series that they think  it is. GRRM is a 1970s "make love not war" hippy. If he ever come to end the series, he will not end it with an ending that proves that this kind of thinking is right. 

Edited by Jon Snow is a loser

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/13/2019 at 4:50 AM, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

BURN THEM ALL!!

I guess by burning everyone in KL prevents any complications in the takeover... amongst those innocent civilians are Cersei's army.. torching everyone leaves no chance of any retaliation, that and she the crazy switch flipped at that point with the bells... maybe she heard them the day her father was killed and it brought back memories of the sacking of kings landing PTSD.

I thought she was born on Dragonstone and never set foot in KL when she was a child.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
On 5/13/2019 at 5:51 AM, divica said:

There is no clue anywhere that Danny will kill thousands of innocents for no reason. Has anyone that saw the show or read the books think she will burn children? 

Come on.. 

One example:  Season 6,ep 9 :  "I will crucify the Masters, [snip], and return their cities to the dirt".  4 cities at least - Astapor, Yunkai, Volantis, and New Ghis.  All of which must have children living in them.  Tyrion reminds her of her father, but she refutes him at first "this is different".  She really does want to burn these cities down.  She is quite angry.  But in the end, she listens to Tyrion.

 

Edit:  To answer your question - Yes, I do.   I have seen the show and read the books.

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×