Daenerys: Analysis of psychology and foreshadowing

[weirwoodface]

5 minutes ago, Wsc48 said:

Heroic Cersei, died trying to protect King's Landing from the genocidal foreigner. 

I saw sniveling, frightened Cersei, as always only worried about her own skin. Never once did she give an order to save the city or the smallfolk. Jon Snow and even Arya did more to save people in KL than Cersei did.

[hallam]

1 hour ago, Kajjo said:

Psychological issues in the moment of snapping

• Lost two closest friends: Jorah and Missandei
• Lost two dragons considered somehow as her children.
• Lost two advisers, because of betrayal: Varys and Tyrion
• Lost Jon's affection despite mutual love, feels also betrayed by him.
• Lost her birthright she valued so high all her life.
• No one really wants her to rule, she is not the new ruler everyone desires.
• Everyone hails Jon and loves him. He has the birthright.
• She conquered King's Landing. They surrendered. 
• Lost her goal in life of conquering. She was always about conquering.
• Lonesome. Betrayed. Full of grief, hatred, frustration. 

She simply sees no future in being Queen of King's Landing anymore. Alone, Lonely, Unloved, unwanted.

I think this is right. But the other dimension here is that Dany wants revenge on Cersei and the Lannisters and she knows she won't get it if they bend the knee to her.

What Dany should have done at that point is turn Drogon round and let her armies evacuate the city round the Red keep. The Gold company would switch sides (having surrendered). The soldiers inside the red keep would probably open the gates and there would be no need even for a siege.

Problem for Danny is that she doesn't get her revenge and she probably doesn't get the throne either because everyone knows Jon is the true heir and he will end up in charge sooner or later.

[Kaguya]

2 hours ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

When she arrived at Kings Landing she had already made her mind up about Torching the place, When the bells chimed it only delayed her for a split second. Had they not chimed and she torched the place she wouldn't have been looked upon as much of a monster as they refused to surrender however as they did chime in that instant she realised that if she goes through with it there was no going back for her and I truly believe she had no intentions of letting anyone in Kings Landing walk out of there.

As for her reasoning... amongst all the grief she had suffered recently I still believe the fire that fuelled her was due to her childhood... I don't think she saw the people of kingslanding as innocent but rather the people that stood by while her father was overthrown and they were torn from their home and sent to Essos.

I also think the chimes may have set off a deep memory of that day when everything was crumbling... when Robert took the throne there would no doubt had been chimes and when she heard them it took her back to that dark place.

Don’t think so. You can tell she only specifically targets the scorpions and golden company before the bells. She definitely changed her mind.

[Kaguya]

5 minutes ago, weirwoodface said:

I saw sniveling, frightened Cersei, as always only worried about her own skin. Never once did she give an order to save the city or the smallfolk. Jon Snow and even Arya did more to save people in KL than Cersei did.

Love how she was more scared of losing her power in this episode than she was at the possibly of losing two kids when Stannis’s troops were approaching. 

[hallam]

4 minutes ago, weirwoodface said:

I saw sniveling, frightened Cersei, as always only worried about her own skin. Never once did she give an order to save the city or the smallfolk. Jon Snow and even Arya did more to save people in KL than Cersei did.

Which pretty much describes Stalin after Hitler turned on him and invaded Russia. By several accounts, Stalin froze giving no orders for several days expecting to be deposed and executed for the failure. 

Didn't stop Stalin being lauded as a hero for years after and Putin is currently busy rehabilitating him.

[tallTale]

Just now, Kaguya said:

Love how she was more scared of losing her power in this episode than she was at the possibly of losing two kids when Stannis’s troops were approaching. 

Is it subverting our expectations by having arguably the worst character in GoT die somewhat  sympathetically? And how does Daeny go out now? Coldly assassinated?

[Tagganaro]

2 minutes ago, tallTale said:

Is it subverting our expectations by having arguably the worst character in GoT die somewhat  sympathetically?

Yes?  I would say that subverts expectations .

Quote

And how does Daeny go out now? Coldly assassinated?

I assume Jon is going to have to kill her which will be pretty devastating.  And then he probably says "F it, I'm going North with Tormund and Ghost."

[a girl knows nothing]

7 minutes ago, tallTale said:

Cersei sees them as pawns But deep down Daeny doesn’t see the general population as simply pawns. We have hours of visual proof that she has compassion for the innocent civilians.

In the past yes. In this episode, I don't see that. Dany has always struggled with her competing desires to be good and compassionate and her desire for power. She believed she wasn't going to get the love of the people so she threw away compassion and thus any hope of getting their love, and embraced her ruthless side to go for power instead.

 

[weirwoodface]

5 minutes ago, hallam said:

Which pretty much describes Stalin after Hitler turned on him and invaded Russia. By several accounts, Stalin froze giving no orders for several days expecting to be deposed and executed for the failure. 

Didn't stop Stalin being lauded as a hero for years after and Putin is currently busy rehabilitating him.

I get your point; Cersei will be remembered (probably as having gone down with the Red Keep) as a hero, I guess. Although that could go either way depending on the skill of the propagandizing of any rebels who wish to drum up opposition to Daenerys in the future. 

[tallTale]

2 minutes ago, Tagganaro said:

Yes?  I would say that subverts expectations .

I assume Jon is going to have to kill her which will be pretty devastating.  And then he probably says "F it, I'm going North with Tormund and Ghost."

Jon has to kill her. He’s the only one left that can control Drogon, who would go apeshit without his master.

[tallTale]

3 minutes ago, a girl knows nothing said:

In the past yes. In this episode, I don't see that. Dany has always struggled with her competing desires to be good and compassionate and her desire for power. She believed she wasn't going to get the love of the people so she threw away compassion and thus any hope of getting their love, and embraced her ruthless side to go for power instead.

 

Even without love she still needs people to rule. Also, She could have burned countless Dothraki to ensure their servitude but didn’t. 

[hallam]

1 minute ago, weirwoodface said:

I get your point; Cersei will be remembered (probably as having gone down with the Red Keep) as a hero, I guess. Although that could go either way depending on the skill of the propagandizing of any rebels who wish to drum up opposition to Daenerys in the future. 

I worked with the remnants of Ithiel de Solar Pool's group at MIT. They did things like situate all the TV masts in West Germany so as to spread propaganda into the East. When we were working on the Web at CERN, we had 100 users. They started promoting it heavily inside the US government and within 6 months we had a million.

Propaganda and disinformation is a field I have rather a lot of experience of. The show pretty much has it right. Cersei would have no problem keeping control but Danny will.

[a girl knows nothing]

Just now, tallTale said:

Even without love she still needs people to rule. Also, She could have burned countless Dothraki to ensure their servitude but didn’t. 

She still has the rest of the realm to rule. Kings Landing was an example of what could happen to others if they oppose her. (Side note: I don't personally agree with how she handled the situation, I'm just trying to analyze why she did what she did.)

She didn't need to ensure the Dothraki's service by burning them (except for the Khals) - they were awed enough by her being able to survive fire, take out all the Khals in one go, and being able to ride a dragon. Maybe if the people in Westeros had seen her walk out of a burning building they would have been similarly impressed and willing to follow her? Who knows. They weren't as impressed with her dragon riding skills as the Dothraki were, but I suppose that's due to different values. The Dothraki are all about riding, and a dragon is the most impressive mount they've seen.

 

[tallTale]

Just now, a girl knows nothing said:

She still has the rest of the realm to rule. Kings Landing was an example of what could happen to others if they oppose her. (Side note: I don't personally agree with how she handled the situation, I'm just trying to analyze why she did what she did.)

She didn't need to ensure the Dothraki's service by burning them (except for the Khals) - they were awed enough by her being able to survive fire, take out all the Khals in one go, and being able to ride a dragon. Maybe if the people in Westeros had seen her walk out of a burning building they would have been similarly impressed and willing to follow her? Who knows. They weren't as impressed with her dragon riding skills as the Dothraki were, but I suppose that's due to different values. The Dothraki are all about riding, and a dragon is the most impressive mount they've seen.

 

She knows they are already afraid of her. She really didn’t need it to burn them, its completely outside her character otherwise. 

[Hodor's Dragon]

6 hours ago, Kajjo said:

<snip>

Daenerys was portrayed as being on the verge throughout the whole show. No she wasn't. 

No surprise here if you watched carefully. I watched carefully. 

She was always emotional, sometimes warmhearted and supportive to the common people, sometimes exhibiting anger, fury and rage. Moody and homicidal maniac are two different things. Daenerys turning in to Mad Queen is not that unexpected after all the foreshadowing. I would like member here to collect references to foreshadowing in all seasons. Let us create a fine list of all quotes with season/episode/scene that showed us the "possible mad side" of Daenerys. And I'll just note here that you are giving us zero examples of all that "foreshadowing."

Secondly, what led Daenerys to snap? Let's discuss what made her freak out and decide to destroy King's Landing? In my opinion firstly she realised that the people do not love her and never will. Which part of the story shows that Daenerys can't function without love and adoration? The part where she's sold into slavery to live with savages she detests? 

Secondly, Jon cannot kiss her back, probably because of the aunt-nephew-issue and she realised that she will have no future with him. Jon loves her and she loves Jon, but they are unable to enjoy intimacy. She is utterly lonesome. She has no goal in life anymore. She has been lonesome most of the time. The Daario thing was just physical. "Lonely" is not an adequate reason for mass murder.

 

[Hodor's Dragon]

5 hours ago, Hippocras said:

To me it is not so much "madness" as Otherness that drove Dany, and Grey Worm too. They suffered horrible losses recently, yes and were in deep grief which is a kind of temporary mental illness, yes. But more importantly they saw this as coming at the hands of people they did not love or relate to in any way on a human level. They felt it was ok to take revenge in this way (spear in the back of soldiers who surrendered by Grey Worm, and Dragonfire from Dany) because they could not humanize the people they were doing this too. For Dany the people of KL refused to recognize her rule and so were in the wrong, and they did not love her so she did not care about them. For Grey Worm, he is a soldier who went through dehumanizing training and is facing foreign people in a very foreign land. He doesn't care the least bit about them.

This doesn't make sense. She was raised by a Westerosi with Westerosi customs to speak the common tongue eloquently. The people who were utterly foreign to her were the slaves of Slaver's Bay who she sacrificed so much to elevate.

[a girl knows nothing]

Just now, tallTale said:

She knows they are already afraid of her. She really didn’t need it to burn them, its completely outside her character otherwise. 

Why do you think she did it then? Because she snapped and went crazy? 

If so, I agree that is a plausible explanation, but I can see it the way I described too - that she made a conscious decision to inspire the maximum amount of terror, demonstrate the extent of her power, and solidify her rule.

[Ice Queen]

4 hours ago, Kajjo said:

This is not about reason, but about snapping. My goodness.

She does not see individual children (she would care about) but she is in a rage, destroying a city that will never love her.

Think about real-world shooting rampages in the US. So many relatives report "he would never shoot children" but they did. Colleagues, school children, whatever. This is exactly what happens when people freak out. There is no reason. All the victims are just substitutes for what people hate, are frustrated about, are desperate of.

So her wanton evil destruction was about her wanting to be loved?

Where's Freud when you need him?

[Hodor's Dragon]

4 hours ago, Kajjo said:

A bit maybe, but here several watchers are too much fanboys and dreamers.

The show was excellent and doing a mild foreshadowing and no one in his right mind expected Daenerys to be on the Iron Throne in the end.

Still waiting for actual examples of this foreshadowing. What foreshadowed Daenerys killing large numbers of completely innocent people for no reason?

[tallTale]

Just now, a girl knows nothing said:

Why do you think she did it then? Because she snapped and went crazy? 

If so, I agree that is a plausible explanation, but I can see it the way I described too - that she made a conscious decision to inspire the maximum amount of terror, demonstrate the extent of her power, and solidify her rule.

Maximizing fear that is already maximized is not plausible. In the show, she snapped. , but the funny thing  is, the people might have loved her for not burning them and standing down her army. But again, we need a reason for stark-targ bowl.