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Kajjo

Daenerys: Analysis of psychology and foreshadowing

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Timur, Babur, would have done likewise, had they possessed a dragon.

None of those proclaimed they wanted to break the wheel of social injustice, nor did they fight to reclaim what had been their family's, they were conquerors of foreign territories.

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

I don’t care.

Fundamentally if you’ve invested in the character then all of that has been only to serve a hack heel switch. Jorah saving Dany sure looks very foolish now. I can never watch or read those scenes without this event colouring it.

The only people who think it’s great are the Stark and Stannis fanboys who have always hated Daenerys and have wanted her to amount to nothing for the entire series. Well you have your wish. The writers and George have sure hell made me look a fool. Clap clap. Bravo. 

Am I supposed to feel anything? Is there a moral point to all this? No, it’s a pointless setup just so the Starks get the ultimate win and we have Jon or some Stark on the Iron Throne. Now I have to wait for Arya or Jon to kill her (with Jorahs sword to add insult to injury). Great, your budget Aragorn gets to be King. Clap clap.

Omg I love this so much. Budget Aragorn ahaha. 

 

I'm going to ride this last episode out enjoying Dany as much as possible before the very predictable and boring  ending inevitably happens. Fire and Blood? Bring it. 

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9 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Please let this thread NOT be another rave thread, but let us try to rationally, pragmatically analyse all foreshadowing to the recent events of E5 and discuss motives and psyche of Daenerys. We need a thread that does this soberly and clean.

Daenerys was portrayed as being on the verge throughout the whole show. No surprise here if you watched carefully. She was always emotional, sometimes warmhearted and supportive to the common people, sometimes exhibiting anger, fury and rage. Daenerys turning in to Mad Queen is not that unexpected after all the foreshadowing. I would like member here to collect references to foreshadowing in all seasons. Let us create a fine list of all quotes with season/episode/scene that showed us the "possible mad side" of Daenerys.

Secondly, what led Daenerys to snap? Let's discuss what made her freak out and decide to destroy King's Landing? In my opinion firstly she realised that the people do not love her and never will. Secondly, Jon cannot kiss her back, probably because of the aunt-nephew-issue and she realised that she will have no future with him. Jon loves her and she loves Jon, but they are unable to enjoy intimacy. She is utterly lonesome. She has no goal in life anymore. The people won't love and respect her, Jon will not be intimate with her, her advisers are worthless, she is not only on hew own, she is alone and lonely. There is nothing to gain anymore, not even by conquering King's Landing. She realises she won't be the Queen that free the people and is loved by her people. She understands no one will love her no matter how it turns out. She has no allies and Sansa is against her, all the Northerners are prone to hail Sansa. 

It all depends on what the scene with Varys and his little bird means. She says that Danys spies are watching her, which probably means danys spies are also watching Tyrion.

so the little bird scene, probably means Dany knows about the Lannister sibling conspiracy.

tyrion sets up the bells to mean surrender, but to Dany that signal means the Lannister’s have successfully conspired against her. To her the bells don’t mean surrender, they mean that Meereen and its insurgency is about to repeat in Kings  Landing with Tyrion leading the conspiracy against her. She razes the city in response to having her worst fears confirmed.

at least that’s the most interesting psychological reading I can come up with and gives her justification to execute Tyrion in the next episode.

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15 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The armies surrendered, and the people did not come out of their houses waving flags, cheering her home, nor lifting cups to toast her. Thereby proving they didn't want her as their queen. No Meesha.

agreed.  I felt this was a little abrupt but otherwise well-explained.  As this thread has discussed, Dany has lost everything over the course of this season.  Everyone she cared about (besides for Grey Worm, but who cares about him :D) is either dead or betrayed her in some fashion.  She lost Jorah and Missandei in succession, then watched Tyrion, Varys, and finally Jon "betray" her.  I thought the stuff with Jon was actually pretty devastating- both where she begged him not to tell Sansa about his true identity, and finally here when she makes one last effort to rekindle their romance.  

So you have this angry and devastated and defeated person who finally achieves her dream, yet once the bells tolled she could see how empty everything was.  Nobody was cheering her, she was the foreign invader Randyll Tarly told her she was.  

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So wait, the bells had just started ringing, the armies were still in the street, smoke from all the burning battlements, and some of you are saying that Dany was expecting the crowd to just come out, all cheers and laughter, waving flags. Ridiculous!

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, tallTale said:

The people didn’t come out because they were understandably still scared shitless from the fighting. That has nothing to do with daeny snappinng. 

While I agree that the people are indeed scared shitless, it does have a lot to do with her deciding to burn them all. She waits for quite a while, once the soldiers surrendered, as if she waits for something else to happen.

Tyrion made the argument that the people in KL are hostages and that she can't expect them to be heroes fighting Cersei's soldiers, after she tells him that the people in Mereen fought upon her arrival. To her mind, when the bills ring and they don't come out to cheer her, their non-reaction proves they aren't hostages and were never going to rebel against Cersei, sitting in the Red Keep.  That is what the red keep then signifies when she sees it: not just that Cersei is there, but that the citizens of KL prefer Cersei over her.

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

She did have a reason.  She wanted revenge on the people who had defied her.  You and I are in agreement that the Smallfolk of Kings Landing did not deserve to be the targets of her revenge, but she saw it differently.  And, nor is this a sign of madness. Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, Genghis Khan, Timur, Babur, would have done likewise, had they possessed a dragon.

Then it's an unexplained 180 for her character. Daenerys has consistently been presented as caring about the well-being of her subjects. Uncomplicatedly so.

Presented as smart, too. Roasting the population of King's Landing is just flat-out stupid. Probably 90% of the realm's best artisans/craftpersons were there.

If she wants fear, she could get that a lot more effectively by ruthlessly targeting people who disobey. With this, she doesn't send the message "defy me, fear my wrath," she sends the message "draw breath, and fear my wrath."

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I honestly don't get why people spent so much time seriously analysing the work of two obvious hacks who stopped even trying to write character arcs that make sense years ago. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

While I agree that the people are indeed scared shitless, it does have a lot to do with her deciding to burn them all. She waits for quite a while, once the soldiers surrendered, as if she waits for something else to happen.

Tyrion made the argument that the people in KL are hostages and that she can't expect them to be heroes fighting Cersei's soldiers, after she tells him that the people in Mereen fought upon her arrival. To her mind, when the bills ring and they don't come out to cheer her, their non-reaction proves they aren't hostages and were never going to rebel against Cersei, sitting in the Red Keep.  That is what the red keep then signifies when she sees it: not just that Cersei is there, but that the citizens of KL prefer Cersei over her.

 

The bells pisssd her off because it robbed daeny of her revenge on Cersei, so she should have continued her surgical assault  on Cersei only . Perfectly inline with the many established plot points of daeny . She should have gone there first anyways but we need stupid plot

Edited by tallTale

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, tallTale said:

The bells pisssd her off because it robbed daeny of her revenge on Cersei, so she should have continued her surgical assault  on Cersei only . Perfectly inline with the many established plot points of daeny 

She's angry with the people too. Definitely! Listen to her reasoning to Tyrion at DS. Listen to her reasoning to Jon in the scene before that, but most particularly her reasoning to Tyrion. That alone puts her views on "innocense" and "what she expects from the people" in the worst light possible.

And while the people aren't that scared to ring for the bells, they don't come out to cheer. So, if they were afraid, they were afraid of her, not Cersei, not the soldiers. And that is why she condemns them.

Edited by sweetsunray

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10 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Please let this thread NOT be another rave thread, but let us try to rationally, pragmatically analyse all foreshadowing to the recent events of E5 and discuss motives and psyche of Daenerys. We need a thread that does this soberly and clean.

Daenerys was portrayed as being on the verge throughout the whole show. No surprise here if you watched carefully. She was always emotional, sometimes warmhearted and supportive to the common people, sometimes exhibiting anger, fury and rage. Daenerys turning in to Mad Queen is not that unexpected after all the foreshadowing. I would like member here to collect references to foreshadowing in all seasons. Let us create a fine list of all quotes with season/episode/scene that showed us the "possible mad side" of Daenerys.

Secondly, what led Daenerys to snap? Let's discuss what made her freak out and decide to destroy King's Landing? In my opinion firstly she realised that the people do not love her and never will. Secondly, Jon cannot kiss her back, probably because of the aunt-nephew-issue and she realised that she will have no future with him. Jon loves her and she loves Jon, but they are unable to enjoy intimacy. She is utterly lonesome. She has no goal in life anymore. The people won't love and respect her, Jon will not be intimate with her, her advisers are worthless, she is not only on hew own, she is alone and lonely. There is nothing to gain anymore, not even by conquering King's Landing. She realises she won't be the Queen that free the people and is loved by her people. She understands no one will love her no matter how it turns out. She has no allies and Sansa is against her, all the Northerners are prone to hail Sansa. 

The show has always gone out of its way to elevate the Starks.  The people on the show are not at all like George R. R. Martin's characters in his books.  Those on the show are the inventions of David Benioff and Daniel Weiss.  That's why the show characters sucked so bad.  Take away the expensive CGI and the show is really nothing to praise.  

George Martin's Daenerys Targaryen is nothing like the ones on the show.  David Benioff and Daniel Weiss ruined that character in an attempt to make the Starks more likable.  Their never ending pandering to the Stark fans is nauseating.  

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8 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Please see my post #8 and maybe re-evaluate your statement. This is not about her always having been mad. Not mad as in a medical condition. 

Daenerys snaps and her snapping in such a situation is believable because its a feature of her Targaryen ancestry. 

That poses more questions than it answers, are you saying that she is genetically predisposed to "snapping" not because she is mad but because all Targaryens randomly abandon everything they believe in in a moment of random mass murder?.

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

She's angry with the people too. Definitely! Listen to her reasoning to Tyrion at DS. Listen to her reasoning to Jon in the scene before that, but most particularly her reasoning to Tyrion. That alone puts her views on "innocense" and "what she expects from the people" in the worst light possible.

It’s funny you bring that up because daeny did listen and stopped her attack, but because the show needs crazy daeny, she does something she’s never done before , inexplicably change her mind mid battle and burn innocents despite clearly winning the battle.

Edited by tallTale

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Just now, Widowmaker 811 said:

<snip> Take away the expensive CGI and the show is really nothing to praise.  <snip>

Oh come now, there's a lot of great acting and the technical stuff--cinematography, photography, music, sets, costumes, etc.--is all superb.

Once the characters open their mouths and words start coming out, though, everything goes to hell in a handbasket, and promptly.

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2 minutes ago, Widowmaker 811 said:

The show has always gone out of its way to elevate the Starks.  The people on the show are not at all like George R. R. Martin's characters in his books.  Those on the show are the inventions of David Benioff and Daniel Weiss.  That's why the show characters sucked so bad.  Take away the expensive CGI and the show is really nothing to praise.  

George Martin's Daenerys Targaryen is nothing like the ones on the show.  David Benioff and Daniel Weiss ruined that character in an attempt to make the Starks more likable.  Their never ending pandering to the Stark fans is nauseating.  

I can't agree there.  Other than maybe Arya, the rest of the Starks have suffered at the hands of the show.  Jon is a total dumbass, incompetent weakling.  Bran has no soul or personality.  Sansa is a petty Mean Girl.  Even Robb, was ill served by the show, though to a lesser degree, when they switched his marriage from being one of competing oaths and honors to one where marries because he wants to.  

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15 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

None of those proclaimed they wanted to break the wheel of social injustice, nor did they fight to reclaim what had been their family's, they were conquerors of foreign territories.

Caesar was a politician who frequently denounced injustice at Rome;  and had no qualms about butchering or enslaving vast numbers of Germans and Gauls.  Genghis Khan, Timur, Babur, were all motivated by a desire to regain what their families had lost - before then going on to conquer a lot more.

But, in any case, consciously or not, Daenerys is a hypocrite when she talks about breaking the wheel.  Her vision of society is one in which she gives the orders, and the rest obey.  And, if you disobey, you die.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The signs were her responses that coincided with Viserys' responses a lot from the start of the season. It is the first time she actually meets smallfolk, whereas on Dragonstone it was just her, with her advizors and armies. Rationally she knew that Viserys' tales of the smallfolk wishing for the return of Targs and secretly toasting was a fantasy of Viserys, but in her mind she felt she deserves to expect this of the "people" because she did all she could to be a benevolent rightful ruler: be strong, hatch dragons, get an army that won't pillage or rape, free all slaves as Westerosi are anti-slavery, attempt peace in Mereen, etc. She wanted to be welcomed as their savior with open arms and be toasted. Desires aren't rational.

(...)

 

Wel written like always :D^_^

3 hours ago, Varys_was_right said:

 

And the Iraq comparison is great. Either that or I thought it reminded me of what the bombing of Dresden must have been like. This all seems like it's a warning against Neoconservatism. The whole, bomb people into freedom idea. Cersei is a stand-in for Hussein here. Not a good ruler, but what do you replace him with and how much destruction do you put on the people to remove him?

They said it was actually an inspiration for the episode.

1 hour ago, Cas Stark said:

 

I don't think she's really gone 'mad' she's just gone full Machiavelli, if they won't love me, they will fear me.  That isn't crazy, by any means, tyrants throughout history have adhered to this rule. 

I don't understand why tyrants keep following guidelines written by a republican who was tortured by the family for whom he wrote those guidelines. (I read a book by Erica Benner which explained that Machiavelli is one of the most misunderstood people. Didn't like Di Medici a lot. 

Edited by Tijgy

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13 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Then it's an unexplained 180 for her character. Daenerys has consistently been presented as caring about the well-being of her subjects. Uncomplicatedly so.

Presented as smart, too. Roasting the population of King's Landing is just flat-out stupid. Probably 90% of the realm's best artisans/craftpersons were there.

If she wants fear, she could get that a lot more effectively by ruthlessly targeting people who disobey. With this, she doesn't send the message "defy me, fear my wrath," she sends the message "draw breath, and fear my wrath."

What do you think would have happened at Meereen, had the servile population not risen up in her favour?  

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3 minutes ago, tallTale said:

It’s funny you bring that up because daeny did listen and stopped her attack, but because the show needs crazy daeny, she does something she’s never done before , inexplicably change her mind mid battle and burn innocents despite clearly winning the battle.

Of course she listened and halted her attack, because she wanted to see what would happen. Would the citizens finally rise against Lannisters and Cersei, once the soldiers disarmed themselves and she took down all the outer defenses and had an army in readiness to liberate the city? They don't. They only cry for the bells to ring to surrender.

There isn't a "crazy" Dany. It was a fully conscious choice. She might have a warped mind on who are her enemies to us, but she has redefined that season after season. The only comparison she has to taking a city, warned well in advance, was Mereen, and KL failed her in her mind.

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5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Caesar was a politician who frequently denounced injustice at Rome;  and had no qualms about butchering or enslaving vast numbers of Germans and Gauls.

Caesar would be a valid parallel if he butchered Roman women and children while settling his little dispute with Pompey. Sulla's proscriptions would be closer but he wasn't a defender of the oppressed, either

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 Genghis Khan, Timur, Babur, were all motivated by a desire to regain what their families had lost - before then going on to conquer a lot more.

That's it - they went to conquer elsewhere. Dany was retaking her own.

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

But, in any case, consciously or not, Daenerys is a hypocrite when she talks about breaking the wheel.  Her vision of society is one in which she gives the orders, and the rest obey.  And, if you disobey, you die.

On that we can agree.

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