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Kajjo

Daenerys: Analysis of psychology and foreshadowing

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Just now, darmody said:

I never said end monarchy. I said change the form of government.

It has to be the form. It can't be just a different ruler, because the rulers are represented by the spokes. 

I think you're kind of being stubborn at this point.

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1 minute ago, Hoo said:

Spread the word.  Work on that.  They did not.  They did the opposite.  They had their own agenda and it had nothing to do with saving people.  It had to do with them governing, with them being in charge and making decisions.

I've heard them try to reason several times about the citizens of KL, pleading with her not to harm them.

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1 minute ago, Bear42 said:

<snip> For all we know she just gets really angry when she's hungry, since her entire "descent into madness" was completely coincident with a short fast.

Ha, that point in book V where she says she will return to Meereen with fire and blood--oft-cited by the Mad Queen adherents--she was feverish and couldn't keep food down.

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Just now, sweetsunray said:

I've heard them try to reason several times about the citizens of KL, pleading with her not to harm them.

Did they plead with the people in KL to rebel and welcome the queen?  No.

They simply wanted to be in charge.

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5 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

I think you're kind of being stubborn at this point.

I think at this point you're not even thinking about the mental image you're supposed to have. It's an involved thought process, with the spokes (houses), the wheel (institutional power), and the things it rolls upon (the populace). The only way breaking the wheel makes sense is If you change the form of government. The only way. 

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1 hour ago, snow is the man said:

she planned to use that spell and it worked. It was risky  and I wouldn't do t. However there is a huge difference from that type of crazy to what happened.

It didn't require her to walk into the fire, only for the eggs to be placed there. One of them (Viserion's?) had already started to hatch before she walked into the fire.

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11 minutes ago, Bear42 said:

There was no foreshadowing for Dany indiscriminately burning the civilians of KL after she had already won.  This was completely out of character for her.  The only people she has been ruthless towards in her journey were the ones who refused to bend the knee/surrender to her, and she never targeted the smallfolk.  Here her enemy was isolated in the Red Keep, the city was surrendering, and the remaining army had given up... then she starts burning the women and children.  She went from making a few questionable decisions regarding punishments for her enemies, to committing genocide.

 

There is no "analysis" to be made of characters acting out of character to meet a plot point.  If Jon had started killing children during the battle you wouldn't point at the execution of Olly as foreshadowing.  They didn't lay out the breadcrumbs for this to make sense nor did they create a character in Dany for which this was believable.  For all we know she just gets really angry when she's hungry, since her entire "descent into madness" was completely coincident with a short fast.

I think you're reversing cause and effect. But this would make for a very good Snickers commercial. 

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7 minutes ago, darmody said:

I think you're reversing cause and effect. But this would make for a very good Snickers commercial. 

I was thinking the exact same thing. I wonder what they would have to pay.

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Perhaps, all this time, when Daenerys said she wanted to reclaim her rightful place as Queen of Westeros, that was not her true desire. 

What she really wanted was revenge. Revenge for Rhaegar, Rhaella, Aerys, Rhaenys and baby Aegon. Revenge for House Targaryen.

After the latest episode, revenge for Rhaegal and Missandei.

The words of House Targaryen: Fire and Blood. Avenge your blood with fire.

The entirety of King's Landing became Dany's mourning pyre.

 

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Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, Hoo said:

Did they plead with the people in KL to rebel and welcome the queen?  No.

They simply wanted to be in charge.

:lol: I still don't see what that actually has to do with Dany's decision to burn fleeing civilians. That's utterly and totally on her. If you need to peddle it off onto Tyrion and Varys :huh: And in fact, I don't even think civilians are obliged to go Mysha and carry her on their hands just because she manages to get them to surrender. Jorah told her in S1 that the smallfolk don't care who sits the throne, as long as they are left in peace, and how they never are.

Edited by sweetsunray

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7 hours ago, fairwarging said:

Your description sounds very much in line with borderline personality disorder. An intense need for acceptance accompanied by an intense fear of abandonment or betrayal, an an inability to see people other than fully good or fully bad. I wouldn't say she has it, but I have met people like her who will quickly turn on someone they perceive to have committed 'unforgivable' acts. I don't think she would have survived the scheming of Mereen if she truly had this disorder, but I think she has those tendencies. 

Yeah I wouldn't put her into the category of the full label diagnosis. That's why I mentioned she had high level traits of it. Enough to distort reality when the stress becomes heavy and the fears of abandonment are ruling her cognitions. 

 

I think that is what this season trird to portray, however due to the rapid pacing they couldn't really convey just how deep the pain was hitting her feels, they showed scene after scene of her feeling ostracized and alone, scenes of her reacting with more and more desperation (although the increasing desperation in relation to abandonment and loss of her only extremely few secure attachments was poorly shown).

However unless you have a reasonable understanding of just how rapidly aa person with such intense fears can distort their perceptions of reality and how such people tend to respond.. it would be hard to pick up in such a short time frame I think.

They went too hard too quick, with a bit of time they could have even made the dragon being shot out of the sky scene make rational sense. Dany having growing fears of being abandoned and her attempts at makong that not happrn is essentially maladaptive controlling behaviour.

As those attempts at controlling behaviourare frustrated (fail to result in feelings of being loved and relief from abandonment anxiety) she would grow more and more defiant and begin to act out in ways that she can feel in control. Ignoring her advisors sage advice is  perfect way to exert that sense of control.. i do what i want!

Then, because her rational mind is compromised by such compulsive emotional impulses she spies Eurons fleet (as she surely would!) and decides to exert her control and dominance by impulsively attacking head on with her dragond... onlu to have one nailed due to making such a poor strategic attack.. due to impulsive behaviour.

And then, to more context and communicate her growing desperation and realitu distortions, she finds ways to 100% externalise all blame on to those closest to her. Her advisors would be blamed for her dragons death and she would accept zero responsibility for it.

 Hipefully the general audience would gain a better sense of her growing desperations. And it would have totally fixed that scene!

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Tyrion is the only main character left alive with the knowledge, intelligence, experience and importantly the willful drive to end the madness once and for all..

He will surely be the instigator and designer of a new form of government for Westeros, something representative of the people and something to prevent 1 single person making decisions against the advice of a grand council..

He has seen several forms of government in his travels and noted the issues they had. None of the other main characters paid that much attention and/or didn't travel and experience thesr other forms of government (and would in turn be limited in their imaginations of what could work and what probably wont).

 

This latest episode made a strong point of Tyrion witnessing the horror of the destructive power caused by a single person in charge of all decisions and he will surely stand up and voice this... perhaps to his death.. hopefully he explains the main points of another form of government.  Ser Davos likely had enough worldly experience to fill in the rest.

 

I'm totally rooting for Ser Davos to live out the final episode!

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13 minutes ago, Brendan Hughes said:

Tyrion is the only main character left alive with the knowledge, intelligence, experience and importantly the willful drive to end the madness once and for all..

He will surely be the instigator and designer of a new form of government for Westeros, something representative of the people and something to prevent 1 single person making decisions against the advice of a grand council..

You mean before or after they execute him for treason?

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1 hour ago, Targaryen Peas said:

You mean before or after they execute him for treason?

Well, that depends on Drogon not getting Arya'd before Dany calls a meeting. Stuff will surely be going down in the ruined throne room next episode. 

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16 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Analysis: The origin of her delusions

Daenerys wanted to love her people and she wanted the people to love her. But the people did not love her. They didn't wait to be saved by her, didn't appreciate her desire to conquer King's Landing.

All this babble from her childhood about Westeros waiting for a Targaryen ruler was idiotic nonsense of Viserys who brainwashed young Daenerys into believing this delusions.

I'm more confused at this whole, "The people will never love her."

Says who?

Has she spoken to anyone? What gives her the impression she's hated other than Sansa and not getting appreciated enough in the North?

 

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18 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Please evaluate this psychology analysis for her snapping:

Her frustration and desperation are so believable, Why people don't see it?

She just somehow won the battle. The opponent surrenders. She realizes there is nothing to gain anyway. All she fought for her whole life for nothing. Emptiness. Void.

The people won't love her anyway. Jon won't consummate their mutual love. Nothing to hope for anymore. Her goal in life achieved, having conquered King's Landing and absolutely nothing gained. She simply is at the end of her arc. Won but void. Wound't you snap?

Daenerys is not mad in herself. She snapped. And having the tendency to snap in such situations is a feature of the Targaryen ancestry. It is believable for a Targaryen to freak out in such a desperation. Daenerys was not mad all the time. She snapped just now. 

Grey Worm snaps, too, out of grief and bitterness, and continues fighting. Daenerys snaps on the back of a dragon. That makes the difference.

its very believable. you also forgot two of her "kids" and two of her friends dying in front of her. she also brainwashed by her brother.

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I think there was plenty of foreshadowing but the final descent still felt out of place. I think they should have written the show so that she should have just ignored the fleet, burned the scorpions around the city, then burned the troops, then burned the red keep causing masses of civilian deaths who Cersei was using as a shield, but still actually still going after a military target. I could believe her becoming a butcher, but not a mindless butcher the way she just destroyed random parts of the city.

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19 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Her frustration and desperation are so believable, Why people don't see it?

...

The people won't love her anyway. Jon won't consummate their mutual love. Nothing to hope for anymore. Her goal in life achieved, having conquered King's Landing and absolutely nothing gained. She simply is at the end of her arc. Won but void. Wound't you snap?

OK, I ask you to consider this.

I saw someone postulate a more believable scene. Rhaegal is still alive to begin the battle. Jon is not allowed to ride because she doesn't trust him. During the opening dragon salvo, Rhaegal is taken down by one of the scorpions on the wall. The people in the city cheer. This gives her a direct reason to snap and take out all of her frustrations and disappointments on the people of the city.

I think that makes it more believable and understandable. I'm not arguing that the foreshadowing and build up wasn't there. The previously on made sure to show she was on the edge, mixing dragon talk with Jorah saying she had a gentle heart, etc. Good and bad - she has a choice to make which side to give into. Having her attack a surrendered city is lazy writing. That's my complaint. If she went directly for the Red Keep - sure, I could have gotten behind that. Perhaps she accidentally sets off wildfire while doing so and that sets off a chain reaction that spirals out of control. At that point, we're still not entirely sure what her decision was, but next episode can tell us how she reacts to that and what direction she takes it.

Dany deciding that the innocent citizens of KL need to die because she is lonely and hurt is just lazy. That's all.

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2 hours ago, C.T. Phipps said:

Has she spoken to anyone? What gives her the impression she's hated other than Sansa and not getting appreciated enough in the North?

Exactly. She had allies before Jon. Sure, most are dead, but she had allies. They mentioned Dorne was behind her. Yara was still hers and they got along well. Theon had split loyalties, but no reason to think Yara did. She hasn't actually interacted with many of the people of Westeros. Yeah, I get that her state of mind was fragile due to trauma, but she had options. She can still rule with fear without torching an entire city that she plans to make her home and rule from.

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10 hours ago, darmody said:

I can see that for Greyworm, but Danny already had relationships with Jorah and Tyrion, and Jon and she supposedly fell in love. The Northerners were cold to her, but they're cold to everyone. They were even cold to Sansa and Jon in season Six. 

Think about the tens of thousands of soldiers gathered around Winterfell. There wasn't a single dramatized incident of strife between Westerosi and Dothraki/Unsullied. Not counting little kids running away from Miss Sandy.

On the other hand, several seasons ago Starks and Karstarks were at eachother's throats despite the fact that they were on a winning streak, all because Jaime killed one person. 

The last two seasons needed a few more scenes to establish things, on this I fully agree. 

As for your first point, yes, she was briefly on a path to connecting to Westerosi via relationships, but she lost that. Jorah died, and in her mind Jon betrayed her. He refused intimacy her and with that the possibility of ruling by her side, and she knew he would have more support and love as King than her now that the word was out. She had no connection left that she trusted to anyone from Westeros at the point where she decided to burn that city.

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