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Kajjo

Daenerys: Analysis of psychology and foreshadowing

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Posted (edited)
Just now, Kajjo said:

There is much more foreshadowing but I haven't had the time to collect all myself. 

Daenerys' arc is great and well built up. By the way, this is not DD's work, but GRRM's. That is, most probably, why it is so good and consistent throughout 8 seasons. 

 

No need for more foreshadowing, in my opinion Danny´s traits are crystal clear without the need of any lists. She could behave diplomatically and show some heart here and there (Hitler with dogs anyone?), but she was always on the verge of breaking up, and everytime she had to make some decision the scene was tense.

Sansa refusing her, Jon´s doubts and Varys/Tyrion´s treasons are not precisely helping the common folk in KL here, not to mention Missandei plus the dragon dying there.

All things considered people surprised of her ruthlesness in this context are just blind. Call me a pervert but i found Danny going mad over KL pretty sexy, if not liberating.

Edited by Empress Sansa

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I’m sorry to admit I did not read all 20 pages of this thread, but from skimming through, I think I agree with many key points. 

Dannys madness has been foreshadowed for a long time. 

She has had several recent terrible losses in her life (losing dragons, losing friends, finding out advisors have betrayed you)

She just participated in a traumatic battle in Winterfell. 

I was absolutely prepared for her to snap if something went wrong in their attack of Kings Landing. But everything went perfect. She easily took out the iron fleet while avoiding slaughtering citizens. She easily took out the scorpions on the walls without slaughtering citizens. The entire Lannister army surrendered without a fight. Then she saw the red keep and snapped. Fine, I’m still on board here. If she flies to the red keep, burns that thing down with Cersei inside (despite Tyrion warning her not to), then it crumbles and kills a lot of small folk by accident in the process forcing people to turn on her, I’d believe that in a heartbeat. That is believable to me and gets us almost to exactly where we are now, only Danny would still be a little gray, not totally evil. She would still be ruling with fear instead of love.

Instead, she is so mad at Cersei that she wants to ‘make it personal’ by purposefully killing a bunch of innocents. Ok... you lost me. Sounds like something the slavers in slavers bay might want to do. 

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Just now, Kajjo said:

The quote "and burn cities to the ground" is very close and surely included everyone there, with men, women and children. Don't evade this S2 quote, please. There it was, her violent streak, her burning down everything.

And again, she snapped. That is not about pure reason but about freaking out. You really don't want to see that sometime a situation can break a person? Are there no rampages or suicides in your part of the world? Get real.

"I have no love. In have only fear." --" So, let it be fear."

 

I'm not evading it. She has said all kinds of stuff: threats have always been in her repertoire.

Burning a city to the ground that is effectively opposing her and cannot be taken out any other way would be much more believable than what actually happened. After all, fire is her weapon.

As for snapping, you're changing the subject. We're talking about foreshadowing. But I will say this about snapping: it's bullshit to have the protagonist suddenly snap--not gradually, suddenly--at the very end of the story in a way that radically changes what the whole story means. That's not fair to watchers.

If you want to say it's not "suddenly," I'm still waiting for any example of her hurting people for no reason. She shouldn't be busting her cherry for that on hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians. That's bullshit.

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3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

I'd add:-

Thank you. And everyone is invited to add to out list as well. If possible with season and episode count.

3 minutes ago, SeanF said:

4. Her pep talk to the Dothraki riders afterwards, about tearing down the stone houses and killing the men in their iron suits

Yes, that was very clear. Deep inside she always wanted destruction when dreaming of it.

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

 5. Cutting off Daario as if he meant nothing to her

Yes, and she even comments to Tyrion that separating from Daario doesn't make her feel anything. She is so callous, so cold inside, so emotionally scarred from childhood and all the hardships, and maybe even from fundamental, born personality.

5 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Wanting to raze the Red Keep,

Yes, she wanted to burn King's Landing and Tyrion barely could talk her out of it in S7.

6 minutes ago, SeanF said:

The cruel, ruthless, approach has worked, so far, when she's adopted it.  The merciful, restrained, approach, not so much.

Absolutely agree. That is what she learned all along the way from S1 to S8. All the restraint didn't work. All her successes were by violence and force.

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Posted (edited)

If they had saved the death or either her second dragon or one of her close friends jorah/missy until the battle of kingslanding.. then here going off the rails would have been more believable...

having it happen before the battle and time for her to reorganize/get advice from others and get her head straight made it a little bit OTT.

Something like the Lannister army throwing down their weapons... the bell chimes and she is ready for Cerseis surrender but..

one of the Lannister army or even civilian purposely or accidently kills Missy/Jorah.

Or Euron fires one of the last standing bows taking out her second dragon.

Would be a good way of turning her so fast in the moment.

Edited by StoneColdJorahMormont

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2 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

If they had saved the death or either her second dragon or one of her close friends jorah/missy until the battle of kingslanding.. then here going off the rails would have been more believable...

having it happen before the battle and time for her to reorganize/get advice from others and get her head straight made it a little bit OTT.

Something like the Lannister army throwing down their weapons... the bell chimes and she is ready for Cerseis surrender but one of the Lannister army or even civilian purposely or accidently kills Missy/Jorah would have made her going apeshit more believable in the moment.

Yes, they could have done many things to make it more believable.  Like having Rhaegal die during the battle for KL and this sends her into a frenzy.  They also should have  had her go straight for the Red Keep and maybe when there is no Cersei there she starts burning things down in frustration.  Instead, they had her start on the outside grid and work her way to the Red Keep at the end.

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6 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

at the very end of the story in a way that radically changes what the whole story means. That's not fair to watchers.

It was not a sudden change. They built up to it about eight seasons long and very many people expected it. It didn't change the whole story, because the whole story was built on her snapping in the end. Who paid attention, could have predicted it.

8 minutes ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

I’d believe that in a heartbeat. That is believable to me and gets us almost to exactly where we are now, only Danny would still be a little gray, not totally evil. She would still be ruling with fear instead of love.

I agree with you so far. Yes, that would have been an easier-to-comprehend built-up. But I think the beauty in her snapping after the victory lies in the void she feels. In having achieved her goal and realising how hollow it is. She is so angry and then the madness kicks in She's been on the verge ever since. She is a victim to the inbred Targaryen madness. I can accept this, but I sincerely also see your point of view and could have accepted that as easier and maybe even better to follow.

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Just now, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

 

having it happen before the battle and time for her to reorganize/get advice from others and get her head straight made it a little bit OTT. 

 

Tyrion fails his word and Varys appears as a traitor precisely in that moment of needed calm. There is no trustable advice left and she just takes revenge in the heat of the battle, against her own word.

Shit happens.

 

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2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yes, they could have done many things to make it more believable.  Like having Rhaegal die during the battle for KL and this sends her into a frenzy.  They also should have  had her go straight for the Red Keep and maybe when there is no Cersei there she starts burning things down in frustration.  Instead, they had her start on the outside grid and work her way to the Red Keep at the end.

Yes, I agree. I would have liked the Rhaegal snapping, too. 

But as it is they go for the verge of madness, not for reason or understandable anger. And yes, they mean it,. She snaps. She loses it. And if that happens, we don't need reasons and logic. She snapped. She broke. Too much to cope with. To less to live for.

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2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

It was not a sudden change. They built up to it about eight seasons long and very many people expected it. It didn't change the whole story, because the whole story was built on her snapping in the end. Who paid attention, could have predicted it.<snip>

Please notice you've given me zero instances of foreshadowing that she would kill people for no reason. Much less hundreds of thousands of them.

This is bad story-telling. VERY bad, amateurish.

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9 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

If they had saved the death or either her second dragon or one of her close friends jorah/missy until the battle of kingslanding.. then here going off the rails would have been more believable...

having it happen before the battle and time for her to reorganize/get advice from others and get her head straight made it a little bit OTT.

Something like the Lannister army throwing down their weapons... the bell chimes and she is ready for Cerseis surrender but..

one of the Lannister army or even civilian purposely or accidently kills Missy/Jorah.

Or Euron fires one of the last standing bows taking out her second dragon.

Would be a good way of turning her so fast in the moment.

Yes, surrenders that get fucked up have frequently happened in real life. 

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2 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

Please notice you've given me zero instances of foreshadowing that she would kill people for no reason. Much less hundreds of thousands of them.

This is bad story-telling. VERY bad, amateurish.

We've given a load of examples of cruelty, callousness, selfishness, wishing to do harm.  In every case she had reasons, and she has reasons now.  Cersei defied her in the most insulting and hurtful way imaginable at the end of Episode 4, and now she's making the city pay the price.

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I'm not saying I hate how it went down at all... I can still understand her actions however I do feel despite playing it over and over in her head, going by how Dany has dealt with situations in the past when she has some time to think it over, she wouldn't have gone on a bloodlust and it would have kept with her good side keeping her darkside in check.

But had they kept one of the important deaths right until the battle on the day... not having time to get her mad side in check, her going full on bloodlust would not be causing as much divisive talk and people would understand/accept it a little better.

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Just now, SeanF said:

We've given a load of examples of cruelty, callousness, selfishness, wishing to do harm.  In every case she had reasons, and she has reasons now.  Cersei defied her in the most insulting and hurtful way imaginable at the end of Episode 4, and now she's making the city pay the price.

I'm talking about logical reasons, not personal anger. She has shown anger, but her actions as queen have always been logical and era-appropriate. It's horseshit for her to suddenly go so far off the rails at the very end of the story. That's not foreshadowed at all.

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Posted (edited)
Just now, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

I'm not saying I hate how it went down at all... I can still understand her actions however I do feel despite playing it over and over in her head, going by how Dany has dealt with situations in the past when she has some time to think it over, she wouldn't have gone on a bloodlust and it would have kept with her good side keeping her darkside in check.

But had they kept one of the important deaths right until the battle on the day... not having time to get her mad side in check, her going full on bloodlust would not be causing as much divisive talk and people would understand/accept it a little better.

I admit you have a point there, and for example Missandei might have been beheaded by Cersei right after the bells are singing, making Dany´s fury more sensible. But in that case (Missandei alive) invading KL would have lost weight.

I just like it the way it is in the end, and am perfectly fine with Dany losing it (which i think it adds to the show in a '1st season fashion').

Edited by Empress Sansa

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14 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

It's horseshit for her to suddenly go so far off the rails at the very end of the story. That's not foreshadowed at all.

OK, let us agree to disagree. You have your adamant opinion, do not provide any quotes or arguments and are just contradicting every sensible quote. I finish this fruitless discussion here.

Stop watching the show instead of further moaning and whining. If it is oh-so-bad, just don't watch it. Simple as that.

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14 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

I'm talking about logical reasons, not personal anger. She has shown anger, but her actions as queen have always been logical and era-appropriate. It's horseshit for her to suddenly go so far off the rails at the very end of the story. That's not foreshadowed at all.

Personal anger/loss is a logical reason for someone to do something bad, even out of character.

While I don't think they did a good job of showing her become unhinged enough to burn KL to the ground, and so they are rightly being criticized for rushing arguably the story's most important story and final twist, Dany has been threatening this kind of a move since the 2nd season.  There are also much more believable triggers they could and should have used, but that's the show, it's been sloppy, silly and poorly plotted since they ran out of book material.

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Empress Sansa said:

I admit you have a point there, and for example Missandei might have been beheaded by Cersei right after the bells are singing, making Dany´s fury more sensible. But in that case (Missandei alive) invading KL would have lost weight.

I just like it the way it is in the end, and am perfectly fine with Dany losing it (which i think it adds to the show in a 1st season fashion).

maybe not missy, but keeping jorah alive or one of her dragons would have been a good kill in the battle and enough to send her off the edge at that point and moment.

Imagine the scene.

As Euron was still alive, imagine he had managed to find one working bow and shot her second dragon during the seize fire.... 

Camera pans to all of her closest allies Jon.Tyrion,Missy etc.... they all straight away look at Dany as her Dragon falls to its death with a look of  Ohhhhh shit she's gonna lose it, Even Cersei and Qyburn realise at that moment she is going to explode.

Dany in the moment loses it and starts torching everything and anyone....

 

It also wouldn't have been a cheap death... there was no need for her to be flying so close to Eurons army in the last episode for them to be able to take her dragon out... 

Nobody loses the plot on the internet about it as it happened in the moment and could be seen as understandable.

Edited by StoneColdJorahMormont

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Just now, Kajjo said:

OK, let us agree to disagree. You have your adamant opinion, do not provide any quotes or arguments and are just contradicting every sensible quote. I finish this fruitless discussion here.

Stop watching the show instead of further moaning and whining. If it is oh-so-bad, just don't watch it. Simple as that.

Say whatever you like, you still haven't provided a single example of her killing or even hurting people for no reason, despite all your repeated claims that her actions were "foreshadowed."

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5 minutes ago, StoneColdJorahMormont said:

maybe not missy, but keeping jorah alive or one of her dragons would have been a good kill in the battle and enough to send her off the edge at that point and moment.

Imagine the scene.

As Euron was still alive, imagine he had managed to find one working bow and shot her second dragon during the seize fire.... 

Camera pans to all of her closest allies Jon.Tyrion,Missy etc.... they all straight away look at Dany as her Dragon falls to its death with a look of  Ohhhhh shit she's gonna lose it, Even Cersei and Qyburn realise at that moment she is going to explode.

Dany in the moment loses it and starts torching everything and anyone....

 

It also wouldn't have been a cheap death... there was no need for her to be flying so close to Eurons army in the last episode for them to be able to take her dragon out... 

Nobody loses the plot on the internet about it as it happened in the moment and could be seen as understandable.

If it was down to me, I'd probably have gone for the surrender that goes wrong.  Dany and her army are on the point of accepting the surrender, when a Lannister archer shoots one of them, either deliberately or by mistake. Grey Worm, concluding that the surrender is a sham, hurls his spear, and the army goes on the rampage - while Dany burns up the city.

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