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Kajjo

Daenerys: Analysis of psychology and foreshadowing

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So you want her to break the wheel without establishing any power first? lol, that is worst than any comic/anime.  They want the cake and eat it too. Conquest and change without a single slap.

Welcome to war! Are you protesting the us claiming no victims on their bombings, or collateral, there was no other way, or they were all terrorists i swear? No, of course not.

During medieval conquest, or if khan appears at city walls and says "surrender peacefully or die horribly" does he spare them miraculously if they show signs of surrendering only after the battle is lost?! of course not. Add the khan's brother or favorite concubine being executed.

Bells?! Fall for yet another treachery? Trust the useless and still lannister faithful imp? He should have been executed with Varys. It's his fault cerci wasn't killed way sooner with less bloodshed. He should consider suicide.

Remember it was cerci's plan to have those people all killed and as hostages/human shields. Like a modern day terrorist. Yet some think her a heroine and Dany the devil? GTFOH

Master of whisperers is the real mad one, betraying her before the battle begins?! and putting her in a foul mood. If he killed her what would happen with the dragon and would cerci lose? Who would rule because jon does not want it, fat imbecil. How about making propaganda in favor of the saviors of mankind and against the walker of shame and burner of religion?

Who has not commited atrocities in this show? Where all the numerous freys terribly guilty?

 

Foreshadowing? lol only worth discussing in the books, because you know Dumb and Dumber make rash decisions, set pieces, random jests. And they dont care or are incapable of it. You are just trying to catch the wind.

 

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24 minutes ago, SeanF said:

If it was down to me, I'd probably have gone for the surrender that goes wrong.  Dany and her army are on the point of accepting the surrender, when a Lannister archer shoots one of them, either deliberately or by mistake. Grey Worm, concluding that the surrender is a sham, hurls his spear, and the army goes on the rampage - while Dany burns up the city.

The spear getting chucked after the seize fire is one way however it would need to hit someone dear to Dany for it to set her off...  some random northerner wouldn't be enough to explain her losing it so severely... maybe if they had kept missy alive and she got hit with a random spear when it was aimed at Dany next to her would be a good way and if it was a civilian that wasn't taking to kindly to her invasion it would also tie up the killing civilians.... if they don't want me to save them then they can burn with their queen.

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1 hour ago, Empress Sansa said:

All things considered people surprised of her ruthlesness in this context are just blind. Call me a pervert but i found Danny going mad over KL pretty sexy, if not liberating.

:D I wouldn't go that far myself, but I find the climax of her story arc to be extremely epic. I suspect that the more time passes from season 8, the better that episode 5 will age. The tragedy of Dany's arc is outstripped by the fact that the showrunners rushed the story in the end.

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3 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Well, the common fanboys are not a suitable measure for serious storylines. Of course there were so many fanboy of Dany and all of them are devastated that their homely Hollywood-soap happy ending was canceled. They simply paid no attention to the show.

Funny how The Last Jedi parallels keep popping up. Not really understanding what it was all about was also hurled around back then.

3 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Yes, it is a bit rushed, I agree. But the foreshadowing was there and whoever paid attention could predict it. There was discussion about this since YEARS. Be honest about it. These theories are not new. They have several valid arguments since many seasons.

A bit rushed... that is more or less like having WWI break out one sunny day without Archduke Ferdinand's assassination. Yeah, it had been coming for some time, the writing was all over the wall, but it still needed a spark. 

Plus, Dany's foreshadowing was to becoming ruthless, perhaps even cruel, towards traitors and enemies. Never towards smallfolk, women and children. That would require a bloody big incentive, and that simply wasn't there.

 

 

1 hour ago, Aedam Targaryen said:

I was absolutely prepared for her to snap if something went wrong in their attack of Kings Landing. But everything went perfect. She easily took out the iron fleet while avoiding slaughtering citizens. She easily took out the scorpions on the walls without slaughtering citizens. The entire Lannister army surrendered without a fight. Then she saw the red keep and snapped. Fine, I’m still on board here. If she flies to the red keep, burns that thing down with Cersei inside (despite Tyrion warning her not to), then it crumbles and kills a lot of small folk by accident in the process forcing people to turn on her, I’d believe that in a heartbeat. That is believable to me and gets us almost to exactly where we are now, only Danny would still be a little gray, not totally evil. She would still be ruling with fear instead of love.

Amen.

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You really want a psychological analysis? Well very easy: Dany is a psychopath and a narcissist. For 16 years her fan club didn’t want to see the signs, defended them, found excuses. For 16 years. No more excuse possible. She suffers some clear personality disorders. 

The signs were there from the beginning. 

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Posted (edited)
23 minutes ago, Ygrain said:

Never towards smallfolk, women and children. That would require a bloody big incentive, and that simply wasn't there.

She wanted to burn some Essos cities down before. In S2 she even announced to burn down and destroy enemies' cities, surely including women and children.

Edited by Kajjo

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5 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

She wanted to burn some Essos cities down before. In S2 she even announced to burn down and destroy enemies' cities, surely including women and children.

Here ya go. 

 

Quote

Thirteen! When my dragons are grown, we will take back what was stolen from me, and destroy those who have wronged me. We will lay waste to armies, and burn cities to the ground. Turn us away, and we will burn you first. 

 

I've not read through this thread so not sure if this has been covered. 

Dany tries other options first, but if left with nothing else...it's what we got in seasons 7-8: taking back what is hers, revenge, burning cities to the ground. Dany lacks the brakes that most have in this matter. Think what you want of Freud, but it looks like her descent was structured with him in mind. She was stripped down to her id. And instead of the normal man's horse, a Targ's id isn't a horse, it's a dragon. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Id%2C_ego_and_super-ego

Quote

As Freud explained:

The functional importance of the ego is manifested in the fact that normally control over the approaches to motility devolves upon it. Thus in its relation to the id it is like a man on horseback, who has to hold in check the superior strength of the horse; with this difference, that the rider tries to do so with his own strength while the ego uses borrowed forces. The analogy may be carried a little further. Often a rider, if he is not to be parted from his horse, is obliged to guide it where it wants to go; so in the same way the ego is in the habit of transforming the id's will into action as if it were its own. (p. 19).[2]

…...

Id

The id (Latin for "it",[4]German: Es)[5] is the disorganized part of the personality structure that contains a human's basic, instinctual drives. Id is the only component of personality that is present from birth.[6] It is the source of our bodily needs, wants, desires, and impulses, particularly our sexual and aggressive drives. The id contains the libido, which is the primary source of instinctual force that is unresponsive to the demands of reality.[7] The id acts according to the "pleasure principle"—the psychic force that motivates the tendency to seek immediate gratification of any impulse[8]—defined as seeking to avoid pain or unpleasure (not "displeasure") aroused by increases in instinctual tension.[9] According to Freud the id is unconscious by definition:

It is the dark, inaccessible part of our personality, what little we know of it we have learned from our study of the dreamwork and of course the construction of neurotic symptoms, and most of that is of a negative character and can be described only as a contrast to the ego. We approach the id with analogies: we call it a chaos, a cauldron full of seething excitations. ...It is filled with energy reaching it from the instincts, but it has no organization, produces no collective will, but only a striving to bring about the satisfaction of the instinctual needs subject to the observance of the pleasure principle.[10]

In the id:

...contrary impulses exist side by side, without cancelling each other out. ...There is nothing in the id that could be compared with negation...nothing in the id which corresponds to the idea of time.[11]

Developmentally, the id precedes the ego; i.e., the psychic apparatus begins, at birth, as an undifferentiated id, part of which then develops into a structured ego. While "id" is in search of pleasure, "ego" emphasizes the principle of reality.[12] Thus, the id:

...contains everything that is inherited, that is present at birth, is laid down in the constitution—above all, therefore, the instincts, which originate from the somatic organization, and which find a first psychical expression here (in the id) in forms unknown to us.[13]

 

Here, Dany reacts to the death of Barristan by punishing without care to the individual's guilt or innocence, but just a need to lash out violently. 

 

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Posted (edited)

Dany didn't snap in this episode, she snapped in E4.  

She wanted to burn it all down then, regardless of what the outcome was. She said she wanted the sky to reign down on them and for the citizens to know it was Cersei's fault. Well...they're not going to think that. She never believed Cersei would surrender, but she did. It was almost like Dany was punishing them for making Cersei look like the better ruler than her. Narratively, it was very self-fulfilling. 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Adding, Dany burning the smallfolk of KL was foreshadowed here. 

If the smallfolk, including women and children, didn't like her, then she didn't like them. She also demonstrated no care that they were fed as they didn't like her. Her view of people, including smallfolk, is often only transactional. At the beginning of the season she wasn't above threatening them in a serious way for payback. Later in the season when things were worse for her, her reaction was more extreme. 

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2 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

If the smallfolk, including women and children, didn't like her, then she didn't like them. She also demonstrated no care that they were fed as they didn't like her. Her view of people, including smallfolk, is often only transactional. At the beginning of the season she wasn't above threatening them in a serious way for payback. Later in the season when things were worse for her, her reaction was more extreme. 

I cant remember if it was here or on another site, but I distinctly remember people vehemently arguing against this interpretation that she was scaring them in this scene.

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Just now, Rose of Red Lake said:

I cant remember if it was here or on another site, but I distinctly remember people vehemently arguing against this interpretation that she was scaring them in this scene.

I've not seen those discussions, but I don't see any other possible interpretation of it. She's definitely not upset that they're scared. Quite the opposite. If it's as they argue and she cares for the smallfolk in a way that's not transactional, shouldn't she be upset that she unintentionally scared them and try to reassure them? 

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4 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I've not seen those discussions, but I don't see any other possible interpretation of it. She's definitely not upset that they're scared. Quite the opposite. If it's as they argue and she cares for the smallfolk in a way that's not transactional, shouldn't she be upset that she unintentionally scared them and try to reassure them? 

Yeah, it was here: 

 

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5 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I've not seen those discussions, but I don't see any other possible interpretation of it. She's definitely not upset that they're scared. Quite the opposite. If it's as they argue and she cares for the smallfolk in a way that's not transactional, shouldn't she be upset that she unintentionally scared them and try to reassure them? 

She even looks a little smug at one point, like she's enjoying their reaction to her. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Arakan said:

You really want a psychological analysis? Well very easy: Dany is a psychopath and a narcissist. For 16 years her fan club didn’t want to see the signs, defended them, found excuses. For 16 years. No more excuse possible. She suffers some clear personality disorders. 

The signs were there from the beginning. 

Dark triad personalities rate high on extraversy, emotional stability and conflict scales. Ramsay Bolton is one supreme example. Dany is nowhere near his scores. Given her life's story Dany could've developed sociopathy (understood as "learnt psychopathy") but I believe she didn't because she is too introverted and neurotic. But I'd agree that she suffers from some mental disorders like depression, anxiety, PTSD or others.

As for her genocidal raid I'd testify before the court that she was perfectly sane and conscious of her actions and that she planned and publicly justified them in advance. This is my understanding of the episode.

Let's give her justice though: her hand was forced in this. Jon, Tyrion and Varys betrayed her, Jorah was dead, Grey Worm wanted only revenge. Left alone, her days were numbered - it is strongly implied that Varys attempted to poison her and orchestrated a coup with or without Jon's aid. Tyrion - although loyal on the surface, was not on her side anymore, scheming, undermining her till very last moment.

KL did not surrender to Danny when she knocked at the gates with her army and a dragon. It has surrendered to Jon Snow and his army in hopes that he will save them from her. Just like they have hoped that cruel Cersei'd save them when she seemed to have the upper hand. This means that the people flock towards the strong and cannot be reasoned with. They are governed by fear. This is why Dany burned, slaughtered and raped the town - so that everyone in Seven Kingdoms know that they cannot be saved by anyone, they are at her mercy.

The worst thing is that Dany seems right and Varys WAS wrong. Jon is not a good king material. He is cool, inspiring, selfless - adorable fool, someone to pat on the shoulder. Something between handsome Renly and constipated Ned but without the military skills of Rob. People throw burden of leadership on him, against his will (or so he claims) and then they are dissatisfied with his decision making. In the end he cannot keep them in reins and when he attempts to, they turn against him and he has to fight and kill them anyways. His own men. This got him killed once and he's learnt nothing. In KL he fled like a whelp... before the wrath of the righteous Queen.

Cersei knew. Cersei understood. Do you?

Edited by TwiceBorn

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Posted (edited)
42 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

Adding, Dany burning the smallfolk of KL was foreshadowed here. 

If the smallfolk, including women and children, didn't like her, then she didn't like them. She also demonstrated no care that they were fed as they didn't like her. Her view of people, including smallfolk, is often only transactional. At the beginning of the season she wasn't above threatening them in a serious way for payback. Later in the season when things were worse for her, her reaction was more extreme. 

This is foreshadowing of her burning thousands of innocent civilians after having finally conquered Kings Landing?  A smirk?  After seven seasons of always protecting the disadvantaged, this smirk is what gave it away?

 

32 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

I've not seen those discussions, but I don't see any other possible interpretation of it. She's definitely not upset that they're scared. Quite the opposite. If it's as they argue and she cares for the smallfolk in a way that's not transactional, shouldn't she be upset that she unintentionally scared them and try to reassure them? 

Hardly a fine line between worrying about upsetting their delicate sensibilities and wanting to burn women and children in the streets.

 

People are acting like because Dany wasn't portrayed as Mother Theresa it's totally understandable that she commits the worst genocide of any villain in the series.

Edited by Bear42
spelling

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4 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Yeah, it was here: 

 

We the readers and viewers were all warned fair and square in AGOT/GOT season 1 to be careful about playing the game of thrones ourselves when Ned's head was lopped off. Who we think are the heroes may not actually matter in that capacity. Later we had clear warning from GRRM/the show to be careful about who we label a hero and who we label a villain as that's been demonstrated to not be so clear. If some didn't listen after all of that...what are you gonna do? 

 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, Bear42 said:

This is foreshadowing of her burning thousands of innocent civilians after having finally conquered Kings Landing?  A smirk?  After seven seasons of always protecting the disadvantaged, this smirk is what gave it away? 

 

Hardly a fine line between worrying upsetting their delicate sensibilities and wanting to burn women and children in the streets.

 

People are acting like because Dany wasn't portrayed as Mother Theresa it's totally understandable that she commits the worst genocide of any villain in the series.

No. I attached a video with lots of context, not a screenshot. 

Fine line; It's a slippery slope which has been the point of Dany's arc the past two seasons. Dany wasn't born a Joff or a Ramsey or a book Euron. She had a path to take to get there. Finding happiness in their fear when she wouldn't get their love easy as instant pudding is part of that. 

I'm not "people" so if you respond to me, please respond to what I actually said. I didn't say it was understandable. I said it's not out of absolutely nowhere. The show failed to connect enough of the dots of how Dany got to that low point. They presented some things, some of which go back to season 1, but it wasn't sufficient to make episode 5 feel like an organic end point for that. Lots of other characters also went through awful things and they didn't go off the rails. Other characters were lonely, hurt, left with less than what Dany has now, so what gives that this extreme was the result for her specifically? All the same, I'm not turning a blind eye to her red flags either. 

Edited by Lollygag

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One thing re. foreshadowing... And "having a reason".

 

Compare Dany to another flame-happy lady... Mel. When we are down to nitty gritty... What is the difference?

We saw Mel mostly in the reference point of Davos Seaworth, an extremely down to earth character. He does not approve of people being burned alive - even if said people are traitors to his King to whom he is fully commited. He is horrified by the shadow babies, even if their use ends a civil war between Stannis and Renly at the cost of two lives. He wants to murder her after Blackwater - and she knows. Does she burn him? No. She has him locked up so that he does not try to do something rash in front of Stannis, as then he would have to die. He thwarts her plan to burn Robert's bastard son (books and show alike) and he gets promoted to Hand. Heck, she had a reason to burn Shireen, in her frame of reference - it was necessary to stop the Darkness. However we saw her in reference of people who strongly disagreed.

 

Dany is always viewed through her own eyes. She is burning traitors. Fine. Then evil wizards. Great. Then evil slaver (and unleashing her new army to murder anyone looking like a slave master). Yay way to go good girl! Then there is the atrocity of 163 crucified kids - so let's go eye for an eye and crucify 163 random guys. They are all guilty. They are all enemies. Then feed a random guy to the dragons because his social class was conspiring against her. Again, no matter if she got the culprit or not. She captured enemy soldiers and gave them choice, kneel or die. She burned their general and his son alive... All in all, the only person where she did not go for fire as go-to weapon was the slave sentenced to death for murder. She was one of "hers", one of her worshippers, so he got the sword. 

 

If you put Mel and Dany side by side, you can see that there is a lot of parallels, the difference is in the observer. With Mel, we see rather inner thoughts of people who disapprove of her, with Dany we see her inner thoughts that view all her steps as fully reasonable and justified. What if we swapped this and had Mel as the hero and Dany viewed by eyes of, say, another fellow traveller who is not part of the Cult of Khaleesi? When we get in books a look at her through the Dornish eyes, she isn't looking as good as she believes she is.

 

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32 minutes ago, TwiceBorn said:

Dark triad personalities rate high on extraversy, emotional stability and conflict scales. Ramsay Bolton is one supreme example. Dany is nowhere near his scores. Given her life's story Dany could've developed sociopathy (understood as "learnt psychopathy") but I believe she didn't because she is too introverted and neurotic. But I'd agree that she suffers from some mental disorders like depression, anxiety, PTSD or others.

As for her genocidal raid I'd testify before the court that she was perfectly sane and conscious of her actions and that she planned and publicly justified them in advance. This is my understanding of the episode.

Let's give her justice though: her hand was forced in this. Jon, Tyrion and Varys betrayed her, Jorah was dead, Grey Worm wanted only revenge. Left alone, her days were numbered - it is strongly implied that Varys attempted to poison her and orchestrated a coup with or without Jon's aid. Tyrion - although loyal on the surface, was not on her side anymore, scheming, undermining her till very last moment.

KL did not surrender to Danny when she knocked at the gates with her army and a dragon. It has surrendered to Jon Snow and his army in hopes that he will save them from her. Just like they have hoped that cruel Cersei'd save them when she seemed to have the upper hand. This means that the people flock towards the strong and cannot be reasoned with. They are governed by fear. This is why Dany burned, slaughtered and raped the town - so that everyone in Seven Kingdoms know that they cannot be saved by anyone, they are at her mercy.

The worst thing is that Dany seems right and Varys WAS wrong. Jon is not a good king material. He is cool, inspiring, selfless - adorable fool, someone to pat on the shoulder. Something between handsome Renly and constipated Ned but without the military skills of Rob. People throw burden of leadership on him, against his will (or so he claims) and then they are dissatisfied with his decision making. In the end he cannot keep them in reins and when he attempts to, they turn against him and he has to fight and kill them anyways. His own men. This got him killed once and he's learnt nothing. In KL he fled like a whelp... before the wrath of the righteous Queen.

Cersei knew. Cersei understood. Do you?

I partly disagree especially regarding emotional stability. The stronger the narcissistic traits the more prone to instable behavior. Narcissistic rage is a powerful thing. And Dany like so many Targaryens has shown it plenty of times. 

The whole KL genocide smells of narcissistic rage albeit with a little delay. If you want you can call it snapping.

she lacks emphaty, she is entitled, she wants to be loved/admired, she has delusional phantasies of being the „chosen one“, she is envious, she has no self-reflection (she didn’t truly grow as a person at all). Narcissistic personality disorder confirmed 

she enjoys sadistic executions and in the end she doesn’t give a shit about what anyone things about her or what is right or wrong. She can do whatever she wants. Psychopathy/Sociopathy confirmed. 

A machiavellist she is not. For that she is way too emotional instable and maybe not smart enough, i.e. not self-reflective enough (which is the one true sign of true intelligence). 

She clearly is no Stalin. More Hitler. 

All that slave emancipating stuff is nothing more than window dressing. In the end she doesn’t give a shit about them, neither in the books nor show. That white savior stuff just feeds in her ego, classical narcissist. And don’t let her thought process fool anyone. Narcissists believe their own hype. 

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19 minutes ago, Lollygag said:

No. I attached a video with lots of context, not a screenshot. 

Fine line; It's a slippery slope which has been the point of Dany's arc the past two seasons. Dany wasn't born a Joff or a Ramsey or a book Euron. She had a path to take to get there. Finding happiness in their fear when she wouldn't get their love easy as instant pudding is part of that. 

I'm not "people" so if you respond to me, please respond to what I actually said. I didn't say it was understandable. I said it's not out of absolutely nowhere. The show failed to connect enough of the dots of how Dany got to that low point. They presented some things, some of which go back to season 1, but it wasn't sufficient to make episode 5 feel like an organic end point for that. Lots of other characters also went through awful things and they didn't go off the rails. Other characters were lonely, hurt, left with less than what Dany has now, so what gives that this extreme was the result for her specifically? All the same, I'm not turning a blind eye to her red flags either. 

I agree with you more than not.  My point is they either went way too light on the foreshadowing, or way too heavy on the payoff.  If Dany was losing the battle of KL and then burned it all out of spite, or burned soldiers who refused to surrender, or haphazardly killed innocents in her pursuit of Cersei I could've bought it.

 

Instead we see her intentionally targeting the helpless after the battle is won.  It's too far of a stretch.

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