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Kajjo

Daenerys: Analysis of psychology and foreshadowing

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On 5/19/2019 at 12:23 AM, Johan Wehtje said:

In Dany's case we had 8 seasons of character development showing someone exposed repeatedly to great trauma, loss and stress displaying enormous resilience. And that character was suddenly replaced with someone who can't cope and has had a breakdown that has made her genocidal.

That simply not true and repeating it does not make it better.

Have a look into #1 of this thread:

It's only her reason that counts. She is willing to burn down cities and kill most of their inhabitants.

Her talk to Hizdahr mirrors quite well the finale Daenerys/Jon exchange,

Edited by Kajjo

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28 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

That simply not true and repeating it does not make it better.

Have a look into #1 of this thread:

It's only her reason that counts. She is willing to burn down cities and kill most of their inhabitants.

Her talk to Hizdahr mirrors quite well the finale Daenerys/Jon exchange,

Actions speak louder  than words. 

Daeny has never targeted innocent civilians before, we have seven and half seasons of proof she wasn’t a mad targ. She chains her dragons for killing one civilian on accident. She literally just saved the north an episode ago. You don’t get to flip that switch after all that. It’s poor story telling after establishing the morality of the character.

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17 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

That simply not true and repeating it does not make it better.

Have a look into #1 of this thread:

It's only her reason that counts. She is willing to burn down cities and kill most of their inhabitants.

Her talk to Hizdahr mirrors quite well the finale Daenerys/Jon exchange,

 

I and quite a few others have already posted the link to this:

To which I don't have much to add other than to simply repeat what is there - we have Dany repeatedly in situations where she could be indiscriminate and she instead discriminates. 

And she simply has not been shown as crazy or psychologically fragile over the last 8 seasons until this episode. 

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30 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

That simply not true and repeating it does not make it better.

Have a look into #1 of this thread:

It's only her reason that counts. She is willing to burn down cities and kill most of their inhabitants.

Her talk to Hizdahr mirrors quite well the finale Daenerys/Jon exchange,

Why this is an ass-pull is because the world that the show runners created is a very cruel one.  Honour gets you killed.  The way to defeat cruel enemies is to be even more cruel than they are.  Dany fits into this world - right up to the point that it suits the show runners to have people be sufficiently outraged by her behaviour to plot to kill her.  And worse than that, Bran who can see all the past and the present,  set her up to be killed, once she'd fought the Night's King, so that he could ascend the Throne.

What a cynical and depressing outcome.

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2 minutes ago, SeanF said:

And worse than that, Bran who can see all the past and the present,  set her up to be killed, once she'd fought the Night's King, so that he could ascend the Throne.

How so?! That's your phantasy. Bran sees the past, not the future.

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Just now, Kajjo said:

How so?! That's your phantasy. Bran sees the past, not the future.

He had his vision of Drogon flying over Kings Landing.

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7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

He had his vision of Drogon flying over Kings Landing.

Yes, he has greensight for the past, warging for the present and some few flashes of visions of future events.

I tend to believe these flashes are not important and should not be interpreted as Bran being able to see the future as he can see the past.

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4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

Why this is an ass-pull is because the world that the show runners created is a very cruel one.  Honour gets you killed.  The way to defeat cruel enemies is to be even more cruel than they are.  Dany fits into this world - right up to the point that it suits the show runners to have people be sufficiently outraged by her behaviour to plot to kill her.  And worse than that, Bran who can see all the past and the present,  set her up to be killed, once she'd fought the Night's King, so that he could ascend the Throne.

What a cynical and depressing outcome.

This.

Saying that her bloodcurdling speeches prefigure madness is also to create a special condition for Dany that does not apply to anyone else. The world we have been watching is one where there is not much of a line between vengeance and justice - if you want justice seek your own vengeance. Arya has been on a killing spree for 3 seasons and isn't seen as some monster. Varys himself gives Olenna and the sand snakes the blood and fire speech. Talking rampage talk to Dothraki is just knowing your audience. What does make Dany unique is that she is the only character at all that displays any real concern for the people, Tyrion might be decent, Jon also - but Tyrion regards commoners as a bit of an abstraction and with a certain distaste, and lets face it Jon mostly wants the wild lings help in the fight against the NK. Dany is unique that from the freeing of the lamb people slaves onwards she actually is prepared to make sacrifices in her crusade  for the oppressed, her story is a 4 season detour in which liberates millions.

Also her violence has been very discrete and generally been preceded by negotiation. Add to that the fact that we have most of the in worlds most honourable and smartest characters all coming to the same conclusion about her for 7 seasons and it really is a rug pull with a couple of weak allusions to ambiguous foreshadowing to try and justify it. Nothing in the characters actual behaviour and choices over the preceding seasons justify it. 

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I agree that the progression was butchered, but I have a somewhat different take on the matter. Perhaps this has been covered elsewhere (in this thread or others). If so, I apologize for missing the relevant post(s). I try to read things carefully, but there is a hell of a lot of Dany material to read.

I can't disentangle show Dany from so much of what I see as the nonsense that has infested the whole show for the last few seasons. In truth, I don't think she should be so disentangled. My problems with her are similar to problems with many other characters. The writers didn't give us character development; they gave us character assassination. Dany went mad? Okay, but exactly how did Dany become a moron? Was it similar to the brain damage somehow suffered by her advisers? Was it because so many of the events she was witnessing were not just distressing, but also totally bogus? I have posted this elsewhere. I thought it worthwhile to repeat it here. Daenerys Targaryen's final speech: 

Unsullied! It is amazing to see so many of you! You were mostly wiped out up at Winterfell. Your bodies were burned on immense pyres, using wood that the North could not afford to waste. Now, rank upon rank, you stand before me in the capital. In Esos, I told you that you were free men, able to choose your own path. You have just seen me slaughter countless people needlessly. I set fire to an entire city while you were in it, so I know you still love me. Now, we will set forth on great conquests, marching through winter lands without food, smashing other lands, some of which have already pledged fealty to me. Also, I and my advisers will totally forget that we will be sailing blind into seas totally controlled by our enemies. We will forget that twice a dragon has been knocked out of the skies by a weapon designed by a creep whose engineering credentials consisted mostly in a love of human vivisection. I have forgotten this despite the fact that on one occasion I was riding the dragon in question. It's clear that we are invincible. 

Was there ever, could there ever be, such a ridiculously stupid wack job as I have become? Obviously, the guys who write this stuff for me believe this. They also think all the viewers of this miserable television series will believe it. I assure you that, at least in regard to that last part, they are quite wrong.

 

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10 hours ago, Parwan Nays said:

I agree that the progression was butchered, but I have a somewhat different take on the matter. Perhaps this has been covered elsewhere (in this thread or others). If so, I apologize for missing the relevant post(s). I try to read things carefully, but there is a hell of a lot of Dany material to read.

I can't disentangle show Dany from so much of what I see as the nonsense that has infested the whole show for the last few seasons. In truth, I don't think she should be so disentangled. My problems with her are similar to problems with many other characters. The writers didn't give us character development; they gave us character assassination. Dany went mad? Okay, but exactly how did Dany become a moron? Was it similar to the brain damage somehow suffered by her advisers? Was it because so many of the events she was witnessing were not just distressing, but also totally bogus? I have posted this elsewhere. I thought it worthwhile to repeat it here. Daenerys Targaryen's final speech: 

Unsullied! It is amazing to see so many of you! You were mostly wiped out up at Winterfell. Your bodies were burned on immense pyres, using wood that the North could not afford to waste. Now, rank upon rank, you stand before me in the capital. In Esos, I told you that you were free men, able to choose your own path. You have just seen me slaughter countless people needlessly. I set fire to an entire city while you were in it, so I know you still love me. Now, we will set forth on great conquests, marching through winter lands without food, smashing other lands, some of which have already pledged fealty to me. Also, I and my advisers will totally forget that we will be sailing blind into seas totally controlled by our enemies. We will forget that twice a dragon has been knocked out of the skies by a weapon designed by a creep whose engineering credentials consisted mostly in a love of human vivisection. I have forgotten this despite the fact that on one occasion I was riding the dragon in question. It's clear that we are invincible. 

Was there ever, could there ever be, such a ridiculously stupid wack job as I have become? Obviously, the guys who write this stuff for me believe this. They also think all the viewers of this miserable television series will believe it. I assure you that, at least in regard to that last part, they are quite wrong.

 

Her speech was lacking in brain cells. It reminded me of Joffrey in Season 1 when he tells Cersei he would take winterfell in a heartbeat. Cersei then counters his arguments with the solid pragmatics of warfare, much as you've done with Danny's bombastic speech here...the scene was not included in the books, so it's clear the writers were at least capable of writing thought out original content in the earlier seasons. What the bleeping hell happened in the recent seasons? 

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9 hours ago, Uilliam said:

Her speech was lacking in brain cells. It reminded me of Joffrey in Season 1 when he tells Cersei he would take winterfell in a heartbeat. Cersei then counters his arguments with the solid pragmatics of warfare, much as you've done with Danny's bombastic speech here...the scene was not included in the books, so it's clear the writers were at least capable of writing thought out original content in the earlier seasons. What the bleeping hell happened in the recent seasons? 

I don't know. The main takeaway from the Dany scenes is similar to that for a lot of other characters. Things started out well with HBO's GoT. They went down hill badly. 

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