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Kajjo

Daenerys: Analysis of psychology and foreshadowing

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36 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

I did see that in other threads.

 

Well, we already know GRRM's style etc. And it always made sense, even if it hurts.

But now, what's the point of building a character on 5/6 books to destroy it totally.

Isn't it too sadistic? It's not Shakespearean, for sure. Is this the finality of the books, or his views? 

No matter how hard you try to be better, and different, your legacy will always get you back? 

It's a bit too dark, for me. And dark, just to be dark. 

That's it.

Shakespearean would have been: Power is a dangerous, a nearly always murderous thing. Give human beings power - give them overwhelming, invincible power, give them a dragon like Drogon - and nearly everybody will misuse it. Such a power overcharges everybody. 

This should have been the conclusion of Thrones. Not this silly, childish, crude "mad queen" thing

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4 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

I don’t know why you want one, but likely PTSD and Major Depressive Disorder with mood congruent psychotic features. 

I want one because mental disorders again don’t work this way. They are very specific in their symptoms. A person just snapping like that is also insane as an idea. This is why the show fails to convince the audience of Daenairys mental state in a realistic apprehension  because symptoms should have been manifested long ago, and also “describe” a condition we should be able to recognize. Not that it matters, but how she converts has a childish naive approach. 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Of course this is show-only.

We heard the aphorism "When a Targaryen is born the Gods throw a dice" before. We were warned. We also know the incestuous ancestry in the show. We know her father snapped and wanted to "burn them all".

These three points are enough to make it believable, clearly foreshadowed and a reasonable storyline.

To me, she has done enough to prove that she was born under the good side of the targ coin to deserve a better resolution.

Edited by tallTale

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3 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

I want one because mental disorders again don’t work this way. They are very specific in their symptoms. A person just snapping like that is also insane as an idea. This is why the show fails to convince the audience of Daenairys mental state in a realistic apprehension  because symptoms should have been manifested long ago, and also “describe” a condition we should be able to recognize. Not that it matters, but how she converts has a childish naive approach. 

Since yoy asked about her specific diagnosis, why don’t we discuss the two I identified? BTW, I think it would be better to say Major Depressive Episode rather than Disorder. And let’s talk about whether those disorders must be manifested “long ago.”

 

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40 minutes ago, tallTale said:

And you clearly have that memory hole problem  from momento.

her insanity has never allowed her to attack innocent people. The opposite in fact, as she has gone out of her way to help them.

She helped people not because she has a very nice heart but because she is a narcissist with messiah syndrome. She hurted people in the name of helping them for a long time. 

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1 minute ago, Nudu said:

She helped people not because she has a very nice heart but because she is a narcissist with messiah syndrome

That make psychologically a lot of sense.

Another point for her snapping: Mass betrayal. Jon betrayed her. Varys and Tyrion betrayed her. She is on her own now. No one there anymore.

Jon not reciprocating her affections, not able to consummate their mutual love anymore takes her last anchor from her. 

Her snapping is so believable. Well done, eben in the rushed show.

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Posted (edited)

This topic is 40% Targ (Daenerys) haters, 40% Daenerys sympathizers, 20% don't know what they're doing here.

I mean between some are even arguing about the good Daenerys did by freeing the slaves etc, saying it was calculated messiah shit.

And then in their signature they have "I hate Targaryen(s)"

Edited by Targaryen Peas

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3 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Since yoy asked about her specific diagnosis, why don’t we discuss the two I identified? BTW, I think it would be better to say Major Depressive Episode rather than Disorder. And let’s talk about whether those disorders must be manifested “long ago.”

 

Because you didn't. 

https://www.bridgestorecovery.com/major-depression/what-is-a-major-depressive-episode/

 

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4 minutes ago, Nudu said:

She helped people not because she has a very nice heart but because she is a narcissist with messiah syndrome. She hurted people in the name of helping them for a long time. 

I can name many times where Daeny has sacrificed herself to help people. Narcissists don’t operate in that unselfish way.

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1 minute ago, Targaryen Peas said:

This topic is 40% Targ (Daenerys) haters, 40% Daenerys sympatitherz, 20% don't know what they're doing here.

I am not a hater at all (great actress, extremely interesting arc), not a lover (seeing her shortcomings of personality since S1) and I am surely know what I am talking here about from a psychological perspective.

People snapping in times of utter frustration, hopelessness, goals in life breaking away, multiple betrayals, unreciprocated affections of Jon and so on is so believable. I wonder why not everyone sees that.

Some people would like to dream their own storyline. I can see that, but reading a book or watching a show is not about getting the storyline some fanboys dream up or Disney might do, but it continues to be complex, deep, interesting, realistic, surprising. 

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Posted (edited)
5 minutes ago, tallTale said:

I can name many times where Daeny has sacrificed herself to help people. Narcissists don’t operate in that unselfish way.

If you want to discuss real-world narcissism, yes, they do. Some want to be hailed at, adored for their deeds. 

But again, this is not about a medical disorder the who,e of her life, this is about the tendency to snap at certain circumstances. And those are very clear here. Utter frustration, hopelessness, goals in life breaking away, multiple betrayals, unreciprocated affections of Jon and so on is so believable. 

 

Edited by Kajjo

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I think its foreshadowed enough in the show and books that Dany will go fire and blood.

Besides that, fuck Kings Landing - its almost like she is an avenging angel, come to finish what D&D stopped the Night King doing. Anyone who still thinks that the Iron Throne deserves to be standing and Westeros deserves to flourish as a nation, after 8 season of backstabbing, torture and sympathetic fucking incest built on a history of the same behavior, has not been paying attention. The city was lost before Dany burned it.

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Kajjo said:

If you want to discuss real-world narcissism, yes, they do. Some want to be hailed at, adored for their deeds. 

But again, this is not about a medical disorder the who,e of her life, this is about the tendency to snap at certain circumstances. And those are very clear here. Utter frustration, hopelessness, goals in life breaking away, multiple betrayals, unreciprocated affections of Jon and so on is so believable. 

 

Based on all evidence her character should have channeled her madness at Jon and Sansa if she harbored those feelings of abandonment. Certainly not innocent bystanders.

Edited by tallTale

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Just now, Kajjo said:

I am not a hater at all (great actress, extremely interesting arc), not a lover (seeing her shortcomings of personality since S1) and I am surely know what I am talking here about from a psychological perspective.

People snapping in times of utter frustration, hopelessness, goals in life breaking away, multiple betrayals, unreciprocated affections of Jon and so on is so believable. I wonder why not everyone sees that.

Some people would like to dream their own storyline. I can see that, but reading a book or watching a show is not about getting the storyline some fanboys dream up or Disney might do, but it continues to be complex, deep, interesting, realistic, surprising. 

You keep talking about Disney, but when we say that this isn't even bittersweet, but just super dark. You don't answer.

People really need to step up their mind game, thinking that everything dakrer is more mature or complex. I could speak about some Disney themes that are way Darker than you can imagine. 

 

Now about people not seeing her "snap" as you like to call it. I don't it's that. People can see well. 

But people CAN'T belive in that since it it so BADLY handled. 

The showrunner themselves said it, "she isn't mad, she is different than her father, she cares about people" etc etc.

So you're basically shitting on that, saying she is some kind of matrixed messiah, that only works for her own benefit. 

Only to say "Oh but she just snaps, because her nephew can't fuck her"

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3 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Please let this thread NOT be another rave thread, but let us try to rationally, pragmatically analyse all foreshadowing to the recent events of E5 and discuss motives and psyche of Daenerys. We need a thread that does this soberly and clean.

Daenerys was portrayed as being on the verge throughout the whole show. No surprise here if you watched carefully. She was always emotional, sometimes warmhearted and supportive to the common people, sometimes exhibiting anger, fury and rage. Daenerys turning in to Mad Queen is not that unexpected after all the foreshadowing. I would like member here to collect references to foreshadowing in all seasons. Let us create a fine list of all quotes with season/episode/scene that showed us the "possible mad side" of Daenerys.

Secondly, what led Daenerys to snap? Let's discuss what made her freak out and decide to destroy King's Landing? In my opinion firstly she realised that the people do not love her and never will. Secondly, Jon cannot kiss her back, probably because of the aunt-nephew-issue and she realised that she will have no future with him. Jon loves her and she loves Jon, but they are unable to enjoy intimacy. She is utterly lonesome. She has no goal in life anymore. The people won't love and respect her, Jon will not be intimate with her, her advisers are worthless, she is not only on hew own, she is alone and lonely. There is nothing to gain anymore, not even by conquering King's Landing. She realises she won't be the Queen that free the people and is loved by her people. She understands no one will love her no matter how it turns out. She has no allies and Sansa is against her, all the Northerners are prone to hail Sansa. 

I will be honest in stating I have not digested the multiple posts and pages your topic has covered but I am glad we are in agreement on this subject

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

You keep talking about Disney, but when we say that this isn't even bittersweet, but just super dark. You don't answer.

Sorry, I haven't see you asking that. Of course I try to answer all questions directed at me.

4 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

this isn't even bittersweet, but just super dark

This is NOT the end. Wait for the final episode. 

I like that several characters have very good farewell and death scenes. They wrap up that nicely. 

4 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

The showrunner themselves said

They tell a lot of bullshit. Don't listen to single interview lines.

They told us last week, Tyrion "might have come to the conclusion about Jon's heritage himself" and this week they clearly show that Sansa told Tyrion.

I discuss here on the basis of what the actually show in the TV series. The interviews do not really count. They are partly babbling.

Edited by Kajjo

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9 minutes ago, Nightwish said:

Trying to decipher what your point is, I suppose you think that the fact that depression is “usually chronic” means it doesn’t appear in people who didn’t have it at an earlier time. That’s plainly ridiculous. Chronic means that once you develop it it usually recurs. For example, diabetes is always chronic-it develops at a certain point then persists. 

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Look at it from her perspective. She's been chasing the Iron Throne her whole life when all wanted to do was 'go home'. This pursuit cost her her family lineage and kingdom, her brotber, her husband and baby, her fertility, she's been betrayed countless times, has had assassination attempts on her life, lost two of her precious dragons, can't love men she likes, and she's been shunned by many of the people in the country she believed was her.

So, Dany getting bloodlust at the end of the battle was cathartic for her on so many levels and was believable.

It might seem they she has been successful since her dragons hatched, but the whole journey cost her too much in the end. It looks like she finally gave in to the rage.

This behaviour is not defensible, but is understandable given her arc.

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2 minutes ago, Forlong the Fat said:

Trying to decipher what your point is, I suppose you think that the fact that depression is “usually chronic” means it doesn’t appear in people who didn’t have it at an earlier time. That’s plainly ridiculous. Chronic means that once you develop it it usually recurs. For example, diabetes is always chronic-it develops at a certain point then persists. 

Ridiculous is the hypothesis that depression can lead to mass killing. Even suggesting it is an insult to people who are sufferers. 

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17 minutes ago, Targaryen Peas said:

And then in their signature they have "I hate Targaryen(s)"

Yup. I hate the maniac who genocided the biggest city in the continent for literally no reason. 

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