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Nerevanin

Why the bells?

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, adiman83 said:

None of the things you wrote would be my reply to you. I think she did it at that moment because she wanted to punish Cersei. Remember what Daenerys told Jon? That there is no love for her here, so fear it is then. Long story short, her act might not have been madness, but an act of pure tyranny. She decided to live by the words of her house and be what she was always made to be: a Valyrian dragonlord.

Why she did not want to punish her before? With Cersei was personal. With the smallfolk it wasn't. Even if she wants to be a tyrant to the people it makes more sense to kill Cersei first, and then be all the tyrant she wants... the smallfolk was not on her path to get Cersei... but Cersei was in her path to get the smallfolk.

Edited by Saturno

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Nerevanin said:

It kinda seemed from the episode that it was the sound of the bells that provoked Dany to launch the second attack against the city.  Any theories why? Because it kinda seemed as if Dany thought "I didn't came all the way from Essos just to win in 2 minutes!"

(Note: this is NOT another "Dany going mad is unbelievable and it ruined the story" thread).

 

I just thought it was the city being sacked. It happened after most medieval battles, once victory was secured, and was often worse than the actual battle itself. 

Edited by Ellimental

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1 hour ago, Saturno said:

Want Dany to kill civilians first? Okay, write that the people in the streets of KL killed Missandei... Cersei drops Missandei to be lynched by the mob. DONE, Dany's behavior is justified.

Too graphic? How about making Cersei show Dany how the people of KL hate and fear the Targaryen, calling her a witch, a foreigner, etc, etc etc. Cersei had the upper hand right? Why not show the people in the city getting over confident and actually provoking Dany in some form?

The point is to show Dany isn't justified.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

The point is to show Dany isn't justified.

That she was not justified to kill innocent people everyone knows. I'm talking about she attacking innocent people before attacking cersei. If she was to snap the logical order would be inverse. First she destroys the red keep, then, when she IS the queen, she punish her own people. We got Dany attacking people over attacking Cersei, and it does not make sense even in the "Dany is now a tyrant" plotline. Remember, while Cersei is alive and the red keep stands Dany is NOT the queen, thus she cannot be the tyrant. She would be just an invasor, and a particularly cruel one, to the point of being counter-productive and illogical.

Edited by Saturno

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Saturno said:

That she was not justified to kill innocent people everyone knows. I'm talking about she attacking innocent people before attacking cersei. If she was to snap the logical order would be inverse. First she destroys the red keep, then, when she IS the queen, she punish her own people. We got Dany attacking people over attacking Cersei, and it does not make sense even in the "Dany is now a tyrant" plotline.

She didn't snap to me whatsoever. She made a very conscious deliberate choice. Yes, fueled by rage, but not even remotely like "a momentarily fit of insanity". She was angry at the people too imo, not just Cersei. She's angry at fate, at the people not toasting her, not welcoming her with open arms as the Mereenese slaves who carried her up in the air. That's why she wanted to burn them all. They never welcomed her as their Meesha.

The Red Keep doesn't just symbolize Cersei in there, but Aegon's legacy, and the city is his legacy too. He built it all, and these people live in it and flee behind its walls, hating her. So, they don't get to live in it anymore.

Edited by sweetsunray

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1 hour ago, Nerevanin said:

Yeah but Dany started to attack the Red Keep only after the burned almost the whole city. So it almost seemed like she wanted to burn it all, or that she wanted Cersei to see that the city is destroyed (although everyone told Dany that Cersei doesn't care about smallfolk at all).

 

1 hour ago, Pandean said:

I don't think the bells themselves made her go mad. I think that she heard the bells, meaning the surrender, and just said "Oh fuck it" and continued with her destruction due to her desire to get retribution. She was full of anger and pain and I think that she lashed out by, well, burning everything.

Yes, she definitely did want to burn the city, not just the Keep. The people of KL were against her. They did not abandon Cersei and revolt, and they did not cheer when Cersei's army surrendered and the bells rang. Dany wanted to be a hero, she wanted to be loved. She was not.

Viserys flipped in a rather similar way if you remember. The Dothraki "owed" him a loyal army because he gave them Dany. The North "owed" her their army and their loyalty because she helped them against the NK. Then Viserys saw the Dothraki loved Dany and disrespected him. Dany saw Westerosi loved Jon and distrusted her. The parallels are interesting.

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Posted (edited)

Because "The Balls" is obscene. And it sure takes balls to destroy the character arcs of your two main characters in the second to last episode.

Edited by alienarea
typo

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

She didn't snap to me whatsoever. She made a very conscious deliberate choice. Yes, fueled by rage, but not even remotely like "a momentarily fit of insanity". She was angry at the people too imo, not just Cersei. She's angry at fate, at the people not toasting her, not welcoming her with open arms as the Mereenese slaves who carried her up in the air. That's why she wanted to burn them all. They never welcomed her as their Meesha.

The Red Keep doesn't just symbolize Cersei in there, but Aegon's legacy, and the city is his legacy too. He built it all, and these people live in it and flee behind its walls, hating her. So, they don't get to live in it anymore.

"She was angry at the people too imo, not just Cersei."
Much more angry at Cersei as she: sits on her throne, betrayed a deal, killed her dragon and killed her friend. On the other hand the people of KL have done nothing to provoke Dany.

 "She's angry at fate, at the people not toasting her, not welcoming her with open arms as the Mereenese slaves who carried her up in the air."
The Meereenese did that AFTER the battle, and certainly would not be able to do so while drowning in napalm like the people of KL.

"The Red Keep doesn't just symbolize Cersei in there, but Aegon's legacy, and the city is his legacy too."
But she destroyed the Red Keep so there is no meaning or symbol over there that would prevent the destruction. The whole problem is the TIME. She decided to first punish unnamed characters unprovoked and only then punish the one person who was actually antagonizing her and stopping her from being Queen. Cersei was written to be her final NEMESIS on the show.

Edited by Saturno

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Posted (edited)

If Dany was on foot she would need to get through the smallfolk to get to Cersei. But she was flying and it was stablished in this episode the scorpions were useless. So she not going to Cersei first is a decision, and a decision against every single plotline written during the rest of the last two seasons. She not even was written as changing her mind. If she robotically started talking "wait.. queen cersei is not my real enemy... everyone is!" like Harvey Dent in Batman the Dark Knight the target twist would be better.

Edited by Saturno

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7 minutes ago, Saturno said:

Much more angry at Cersei as she: sits on her throne, betrayed a deal, killed her dragon and killed her friend. On the other hand the people of KL have done nothing to provoke Dany.

She feels imo they did provoke her, by not cheering when the Lannisters surrendered. For her, not toasting, not cheering, not carrying her on their hands is provocation. They can fry along with Cersei. Dany thinks in terms of "if you're not with me, you're against me".

 

7 minutes ago, Saturno said:

The Meereenese did that AFTER the battle, and certainly would not be able to do so while drowning in napalm like the people of KL.

And as she explained this episode to Tyrion: the Meereenese fought for her from the inside of the city as well. She already informs the viewer and Tyrion, she doesn't regard the people of KL as "innocents".

7 minutes ago, Saturno said:

But she destroyed the Red Keep so there is no meaning or symbol over there that would prevent the destruction. The whole problem is the TIME. She decided to first punish unnamed characters unprovoked and only then punish the one person who was actually antagonizing her and stopping her from being Queen. Cersei was written to be her final NEMESIS on the show.

She wants the whole city razed and destroyed, including the Red Keep. And the city is between her and the red keep, so might as well start torching it anyhow,. It's also her signal to the Unsullied and the Dothraki to sack the city instead of taking prisoners and accept surrender. There will be no surrender. The first she burns are the soldiers who had just surrendered to Greyworm and Jon. That's why they had their backs turned to Unsullied and Northern forces - to see what happened. All the armies received that message loud and clear. Only Jon and Tyrion were in shock over it. 

You are approaching Dany here as someone who's capable of just pointing the finger at one person alone and seek revenge or justice with that person alone. She never really has done that, except with MMD. She prefers collective punishment and never spent much time in finding out who is the culprit. What about Qarth? Some betrayed her, sure... nevertheless in the show, she has her khalasar sack the whole city. Most of these people were innocents too. But they let that happen off-screen.

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Tyrion told Jaime to use the tunnels to get Cersei out. He didn't get inside in time, the doors closed, he had to find a route to the bells to buy time to get to Cersei.

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1 hour ago, Saturno said:

Why she did not want to punish her before? With Cersei was personal. With the smallfolk it wasn't. Even if she wants to be a tyrant to the people it makes more sense to kill Cersei first, and then be all the tyrant she wants... the smallfolk was not on her path to get Cersei... but Cersei was in her path to get the smallfolk.

Sure, that's a possibility too. Anyway, there's one thing we can probably both agree on. Judging by Grey Worm's actions, Daenerys never planned on accepting a surrender. She did exactly what Olenna told her to do: stop listening to her advisers and be a dragon.

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17 hours ago, Bear42 said:

I honestly believe at one point they had a story board that said something about the bells causing Cercei to lose her mind (walk of shame) but somewhere at some point it got changed to Dany and no one gave it a second thought.  Tell me that doesn't make more sense than any in universe explanation.

I actually read the leaks about the bells before the episode and dismissed them as fake since that literally makes zero sense.  Should've known.

What were the leaks? I successfully avoided all leaks for S8 but now that the episode is over (and I suppose that the bells won't have any more importance in the next episode), can you share what the leaks about the bells were? Just the thing we saw in the episode, or something else?

 

17 hours ago, adiman83 said:

That is my opinion too, that she planned to burn King's Landing from the very beginning. She told Grey Worm he will know when to attack. The moment he saw the dragon wreaking havoc throughout the city, he threw the spear. This means the sign she told him about wasn't the gate, it was her burning the city.

 

An interesting catch! I haven't thought about it before but I think you might be pretty much right! It's true that Dany was not very keen on Tyrion's plan to stop the attack right after the bells. I totally expected her to say "no" but then she nodded. She's seemed pretty upset for some time that the common folk of Westeros ain't welcoming her as a saviour as she thought they would, so she decided to take a revenge against them by burning the city. It makes sense (in a mind like Dany's).

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1 hour ago, Nerevanin said:

What were the leaks? I successfully avoided all leaks for S8 but now that the episode is over (and I suppose that the bells won't have any more importance in the next episode), can you share what the leaks about the bells were? Just the thing we saw in the episode, or something else?

 

An interesting catch! I haven't thought about it before but I think you might be pretty much right! It's true that Dany was not very keen on Tyrion's plan to stop the attack right after the bells. I totally expected her to say "no" but then she nodded. She's seemed pretty upset for some time that the common folk of Westeros ain't welcoming her as a saviour as she thought they would, so she decided to take a revenge against them by burning the city. It makes sense (in a mind like Dany's).

I saw a leak describing exactly the same as what happened in last episode. 

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The way I interpreted her response to the bells was that she felt Cercei (and her lackeys?) were being let off the hook too easily. She wanted them to suffer for what they did to Missandei/Rhaegal/etc... and for not keeping their word about sending armies north to fight TAOTD. So it was not the bells themselves that made her crazy it was the lack of suffering she had been able to inflict up until that point upon the people mostly responsible for her suffering (i.e. Cersei). One thing that led me to this conclusion was how her eyes were seemingly fixed upon the red keep for a second before her destruction spree with Drogon commenced. Notice how the red keep was more or less untouched up until that point. (But yes, she did slaughter innocent citizens as well, which can only be explained by her insanity I suppose.)

I am not sure that her feeling herself not being loved by the people was the real reason, although I could see that kind of agenda too, in a paranoid mind, that is.

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21 hours ago, insertname said:

In the inside the episode, d&d don't talk about the bells. They say looking at the red keep made Dany flip. Why she would then burn the whole city first instead of just going to the red keep they don't say, of course.

I noticed this as well-- that the showrunners didn't mention the bells, when the episode is actually called "The Bells" and the moment when Dany goes rogue or freaks out, or whatever, is when the bells are ringing. I think that is because there's something more about the bells that upset her, and we'll hear about it next episode. 

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Ask Dumb and Dumber, seems nobody knows. Expected flight to destroy red keep but collateral damage all over. Or at least some booing from the populace or defiance even after defeat.

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On 5/14/2019 at 11:05 AM, Dragonslack said:

Expected flight to destroy red keep but collateral damage all over. 

See there's the answer. Viewers expected Daenerys to directly attack Cersei and the Red Keep. Therefore it had to be subverted. Whatever the cost. 

Sorry small folk. 

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