GoT and Feminism: What Happens Now?

[OldGimletEye]

1 minute ago, SeanF said:

 now believes that those who deny her right to rule Westeros are rebels and traitors -blasphemers even - who deserve no mercy.

 

Evidently, the common person is collectively guilty for Cersei's crimes.

The notion of collective guilt can get real nasty very quickly.

[NickStark2494]

On 5/13/2019 at 4:21 PM, Damon_Tor said:

No man has an atrocity on this scale in the series. This is the worst thing anyone has ever done, book or show. Ramsay has done nothing this bad, or Joffrey or the Mountain or Tywin or Roose Bolton or any Khal. The Nightking himself doesn't likely have this kind of body count.

So what ? Why must a man be the one to commit the worst atrocity ? Why can't it be a woman ?

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

Slaver's Bay is a mess, there is nothing to rejoice about except for Dany's Pyrrhic victory.  There is plague, starvation, war, death on a vast scale.  It's so bad that people are selling themselves back into slavery happily.  She has a hollow moral victory of freeing the slaves, but in terms of actual living conditions, it is worse for almost everyone, noble and former slave, they have all suffered under Dany's kindness.

You mean like how it was after the Civil War ended, when the defeated Confederate supported didn't want to accept the former slaves and humans and citizens? It pushed black people into poverty and resulted in mass migrations to the north. Not to mentions the lynchings that came after. 

GRRM has said before in interviews 'what does it mean to rule wisely?' (paraphrasing here). Like after Aragorn wins, how does he become a good king? Dany wins a just war, but ruling afterwards is anything but easy. That's what GRRM is showing here. You can't win a war overnight, but bringing about genuine change takes longer than that. 

Btw the plague, starvation, war, and death as you say is the fault of other slaver cities wanting to defeat Dany. They bring troops to destroy her anti-slavery regime, throw diseased bodies over the walls to plague the freed people, and Sons of the Harpy distracts from economic reform. None of these things are Dany's fault but the slavers who want to keep slaving.

You cannot seriously suggest that being a slave is better than all this? Would it have been better in the US never to have had an emancipation proclamation because it would have, what, not caused lynchings? 

 

[NickStark2494]

On 5/13/2019 at 4:22 PM, Lord Varys said:

Any genuine feminist long abandoned the show long before the present development.

I mean, rape literally used and referenced as character development? Case closed.

This show has been misogynistic since at least the first 'sexposition scene'.

I don't get this criticism about rape.

Theon losing his penis and being tortured led to character development. Jaime losing his hand led to character development. Arya losing her family led to character development.

But Sansa being victimized in a misogynistic medieval setting can't lead to character development ? Why not ? What happened to Sansa is something tons of women went through and still go through. Why should the show shy away from it ?

Why shouldn't her suffering lead to growth ? That's literally what happens to all protagonists in stories, especially in a dark medieval fantasy. Characters suffer and grow by overcoming that suffering.

And this is true to life. Overcoming hardship is often how people develop and change.

I don't see the problem.

[divica]

1 minute ago, Cas Stark said:

She will probably burn them both.  She will, now that we see how the show ends, for sure burn Meereen in the books and/or otherwise leave it a ruin.  She will blame others for this disaster, because she had good intentions, and vow to herself that it will all be different in Westeros.  But, it won't be.  She will have different and much less black opponents in Westeros, and based on the show, she will ultimately, say fuck it to them too.  Bend the knee and live in my world or die.  Just like she has done all along.

I am not sure… She might arrive in westeros as a tyrant that burned mereen and die in the war against the others as nissa nissa after some redemption... 

I think she will have some redemption arc because of the war against the ww and I highly doubt there will be major conflicts after the war against the others… 

[SeanF]

3 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Evidently, the common person is collectively guilty for Cersei's crimes.

The notion of collective guilt can get real nasty very quickly.

It's a horrible concept, which humanity can't shake off, despite the best efforts of philosophers and theologians. 

Dany's view that they're guilty, because they failed to resist Cersei, is all too human.

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

Just now, NickStark2494 said:

Theon losing his penis and being tortured led to character development. Jaime losing his hand led to character development.

If you read the books closely, you will notice that both of these men did terrible things that lead to the moment where they lost body parts. 

[divica]

4 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's a horrible concept, which humanity can't shake off, despite the best efforts of philosophers and theologians. 

Dany's view that they're guilty, because they failed to resist Cersei, is all too human.

It would be the same as saying the slaves are guilty because they didn t resist the slavers….

Not real...

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

You mean like how it was after the Civil War ended, when the defeated Confederate supported didn't want to accept the former slaves and humans and citizens? It pushed black people into poverty and resulted in mass migrations to the north. Not to mentions the lynchings that came after. 

GRRM has said before in interviews 'what does it mean to rule wisely?' (paraphrasing here). Like after Aragorn wins, how does he become a good king? Dany wins a just war, but ruling afterwards is anything but easy. That's what GRRM is showing here. You can't win a war overnight, but bringing about genuine change takes longer than that. 

Btw the plague, starvation, war, and death as you say is the fault of other slaver cities wanting to defeat Dany. They bring troops to destroy her anti-slavery regime, throw diseased bodies over the walls to plague the freed people, and Sons of the Harpy distracts from economic reform. None of these things are Dany's fault but the slavers who want to keep slaving.

You cannot seriously suggest that being a slave is better than all this? Would it have been better in the US never to have had an emancipation proclamation because it would have, what, not caused lynchings? 

 

If the choice is to live as a slave or die free, the truth is, the vast majority of people will choose their life and the lives of their families, will choose to hope for a better future, rather than die today for a principle.  Most people aren't cut out to be heroes.    

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

23 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

Ned executed a deserter for a specific crime that he committed. Now one can dislike the lack of the lack of due process involved, but it was not an act of collective punishment.

And it is pretty clear Dany committed a mass execution for a specific wrong.

And comparing the death of animals to human beings, well I'm just not going to comment on that, as I think most people wouldn't accept that analogy.

Dany's fans have been warned for a long time about the particularly ugliness of collective punishment and guilt. They chose to ignore it. Now after her actions in KL, maybe they should reconsider.

Not talking about Dany's actions in KL here. I wasn't comparing that to Ned's. I was replying to that poster going on about how brutality is brutality regardless of intentions, relating to Dany executing slavers in Slaver's bay. Read the previous threads please. 

Regardless of what you think about animal-human lives in real life, in the books, killing the direwolf has serious consequences for Ned Stark. 

5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

If the choice is to live as a slave or die free, the truth is, the vast majority of people will choose their life and the lives of their families, will choose to hope for a better future, rather than die today for a principle.  Most people aren't cut out to be heroes.    

This is unbelievable. No one chooses to live as a slave. Not being enslaved is not a principle, it's a HUMAN RIGHT. And yes, people did choose to die rather than be slaves. They jumped off the slave ships and committed suicide in captivity. People in bondage took drastic steps to free themselves because it is worth all that. 

 

[OldGimletEye]

Just now, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Not talking about Dany's actions in KL here. I wasn't comparing that to Ned's. I was replying to that poster going on about how brutality is brutality regardless of intentions, relating to Dany executing slavers in Slaver's bay. Read the previous threads please. 

And I was specifically referring to the execution of the 163 in Mereen and not KL.

[NickStark2494]

8 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

If you read the books closely, you will notice that both of these men did terrible things that lead to the moment where they lost body parts. 

So what ? What difference does that make ? The point stands that suffering often leads to growth, in fiction and in real life. What happened to Sansa is one of the most realistic things on the show. Being married off for political reasons and raped is not some invention of the show. It still happens today !

I don't see why she can't change as a result of her trauma.

Oh, and you're not actually correct about Jaime. The terrible things he did didn't have anything to do with him losing his hand. Locke/Vargo's motives have nothing to do with Jaime's sins.

[Cas Stark]

7 minutes ago, SeanF said:

It's a horrible concept, which humanity can't shake off, despite the best efforts of philosophers and theologians. 

Dany's view that they're guilty, because they failed to resist Cersei, is all too human.

Yeah, sadly, George is reminding us that humans are basically a bad lot, all of us full of BS and delusions and lies, all of us choosing violence when it suits us much of the time. I was hoping for a less tragic theme somewhere in all this death, destruction and failure though.

[Cas Stark]

10 minutes ago, divica said:

I am not sure… She might arrive in westeros as a tyrant that burned mereen and die in the war against the others as nissa nissa after some redemption... 

I think she will have some redemption arc because of the war against the ww and I highly doubt there will be major conflicts after the war against the others… 

My opinion is that the showrunners, leaning toward nihilism themselves, that Dany having a very, dark and tragic end is probably something they loved, they thought it was edgy and cool and sophisticated.  And since they went out of their way to portray her actions as totally unsupportable for a modern audience, making it clear that her enemy had surrendered....I really think that her path will lead to some type of major atrocity she perpetrates in Westeros.  

[Cas Stark]

5 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

 

This is unbelievable. No one chooses to live as a slave. Not being enslaved is not a principle, it's a HUMAN RIGHT. And yes, people did choose to die rather than be slaves. They jumped off the slave ships and committed suicide in captivity. People in bondage took drastic steps to free themselves because it is worth all that. 

 

What's unbelievable about it?  Real world history shows that vast millions of people choose to stay alive as slaves rather than die for freedom, vast millions over thousands of years chose life and not death. There is always a choice, as you just admit, that some people indeed have chosen to die rather than be enslaved, but not the majority which is what I said, that people will choose life over death even if it means living in slavery.  

[Bradam]

On 5/13/2019 at 1:04 PM, Bael's Bastard said:

Nonsense.  Nothing remotely similar is described in Dorne. The first time they went to Dorne they hardly encountered any people, let alone targeted and slaughtered smallfolk. Even with all their attacks on the seats of the lords of Dorne, there is no indication of anything like what Dany did. And unlike Aegon and his sisters, Dany has been put forth as being especially concerned with the smallfolk. She just inexplicably committed the greatest massacre of innocent smallfolk in Westerosi history.

Well when the dornish killed little sisters dragon

". Grief-stricken at the death of their sister, Aegon and Visenya set every castle, keep, and holdfast in Dorne ablaze at least once, with the exception of Sunspear and it's shadow city"

That sounds worse then Dany burning one city to me

[Ghost+Nymeria4Eva]

4 minutes ago, NickStark2494 said:

So what ? What difference does that make ? The point stands that suffering often leads to growth, in fiction and in real life. What happened to Sansa is one of the most realistic things on the show. Being married off for political reasons and raped is not some invention of the show. It still happens today !

I don't see why she can't change as a result of her trauma.

Oh, and you're not actually correct about Jaime. The terrible things he did didn't have anything to do with him losing his hand. Locke/Vargo's motives have nothing to do with Jaime's sins.

The point people trying to make is that the show-runners callously used rape as some plot device to give Sansa character. There are other women who get raped, like Dany, Cersei and Mel, but not in the context that's necessary for character growth. You can go ask women who end up in rapey marriages whether their ordeals lead to character growth. 

As I said, they don't get punished directly for their sins, but those things are what leads them to the point of losing limbs and body parts. 

9 minutes ago, OldGimletEye said:

And I was specifically referring to the execution of the 163 in Mereen and not KL.

Why do you insist that it was wrong on Dany's part to execute slavers by the lot? Why do you keep calling it collective punishment, suggesting that some of them were only guilty by association or some type of ethnic basis, and not by their actions?

[divica]

2 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

My opinion is that the showrunners, leaning toward nihilism themselves, that Dany having a very, dark and tragic end is probably something they loved, they thought it was edgy and cool and sophisticated.  And since they went out of their way to portray her actions as totally unsupportable for a modern audience, making it clear that her enemy had surrendered....I really think that her path will lead to some type of major atrocity she perpetrates in Westeros.  

OR they know danny has a dark phase and doesn t end on the throne so they just wanted to go for shock… I don t think we can argument about what D&D think is a good story… Even if danny becomes evil in the books she won t be the monster she became in the show… She might become a maegor the cruel. Not someone more insane that aerys...

9 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Yeah, sadly, George is reminding us that humans are basically a bad lot, all of us full of BS and delusions and lies, all of us choosing violence when it suits us much of the time. I was hoping for a less tragic theme somewhere in all this death, destruction and failure though.

I think you are being too influenced by the show… And think like this. If people hate the ending of the show won t grrm change somethings? I really think someone should start a topic about how people's reaction to the show ending will influenc grrm...

[SeanF]

8 minutes ago, Bradam said:

Well when the dornish killed little sisters dragon

". Grief-stricken at the death of their sister, Aegon and Visenya set every castle, keep, and holdfast in Dorne ablaze at least once, with the exception of Sunspear and it's shadow city"

That sounds worse then Dany burning one city to me

Queen Rhaenys was fond of the Smallfolk, but she still razed Pankytown to the waterline.

[OldGimletEye]

13 minutes ago, Ghost+Nymeria4Eva said:

Why do you insist that it was wrong on Dany's part to execute slavers by the lot? Why do you keep calling it collective punishment, suggesting that some of them were only guilty by association or some type of ethnic basis, and not by their actions?

Dany committed that execution for a specific crime or offense. Not because people had owned slaves generally. She did not bother to establish who was guilty for the crime or to what degree there was guilt. She simply demanded 163 bodies to execute. That is collective guilt and punishment and it is horrendous.

Many a Dany fan have been warned about the dangerousness of collective punishment and guilt. They did not listen. And now, evidently, we see her destroying an entire city, evidently because everyone in KL is responsible for Cersei and her actions. Maybe, Dany's fans should have listened.

Also, the presumption against implementing criminal laws ex post facto is a well established principle of justice. Even Dany recognizes it. In fact, in one of her cases in Mereen, she rules exactly on those grounds. The point being here is that Dany simply executing slavers, for what once was legal, is problematic*. Plus, there is no evidence that she intended to execute everyone that had participated in slavery, when she ordered the execution of the 163.

*And to be clear, I have no problem with her giving out harsh punishments for acts of slavery once she has outlawed them.