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Kimbono

So what happens to Drogon?

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15 minutes ago, hallam said:

I am pretty sure that Arya kills the NK in the books as well. Note very carefully how D&D say they chose Arya. 'We have known for three years that'. Not 'we decided'.

 

7 minutes ago, Torienne said:

I am pretty sure to remember one of the D´s commenting Arya and not Jon killing the NK by saying "We didn't want to go for the obvious". 

Gone off topic a bit.. but if Rhaegar was right and Jon already has a song, "His is the song of Ice and Fire" Do you guys think this is because of who his parents are? Ice (Lyanna) and Fire (Rhaegar)... I kind of thought he'd end up destroying Ice (Night king) and then Fire (Danny).

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46 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

We should have gotten a little truth in advertising and Martin should have said long ago this was a tragedy.  The idea that this ending is bittersweet is BS.  It's tragic. 

If all four of Ned Stark's currently kids (including Jon) end up surviving past the show's ending but neither Dany nor Jon gets the Iron Throne because it no longer exists, how isn't this a bittersweet ending?  They lost two brothers but they still have each other. The North not only remembers, it survives.

Spoiler

Especially if she as a fire figure ends up getting resurrected as a Benjen-style ice-wight just like Jon an ice figure got resurrected as a Beric-style fire-wight, and then the two of these two living dead people go off somewhere nobody will ever find them in a thousand years? 

Isn't that pretty good for bittersweet, or would it be sweet-and-sour now? :)

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On 5/13/2019 at 5:28 PM, Kimbono said:

So first of all i believe Dany has to / will die next Episode, by Arya, Jon or someone.

Under this assumption, what will happen with Drogon? I see some options:

  • He gets killed aswell (but why and by whom?)
  • He bonds with someone new but expect Jon, who could it be?
  • He just "flies off" and is one of the open ends we get like Tormund, Sam ect.

He visits a shrink; his brothers are dead, his mother is dead, his cousin(?) murdered his mom, he has no use for his pyromanic tendencies...

he nees therapy, he does. 

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24 minutes ago, hallam said:

I am pretty sure that Arya kills the NK in the books as well. Note very carefully how D&D say they chose Arya. 'We have known for three years that'. Not 'we decided'.

There is no such character in the books, so it's not possible for Arya nor anybody to do away with him. They just made up this Night King character for the TV series so that there would a bad-guy figure for show watchers to focus on. And, probably, to make for an easy kill resolution of the entire threat of the Others.

What there is as a character in the books, however, is a Night's King (brother of the Stark in Winterfell) and a Night's Queen (a pale Other-worldly beauty) who lived out their days at the Nightfort, allegedly committing dark sorceries, until the Stark in Winterfell took them both down.

Some echo of that legend is our likely ending. We just never knew that Drogon and Ghost and Tormund would join them. :)

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

If all four of Ned Stark's currently kids (including Jon) end up surviving past the show's ending but neither Dany nor Jon gets the Iron Throne because it no longer exists, how isn't this a bittersweet ending?  They lost two brothers but they still have each other. The North not only remembers, it survives.

  Hide contents

Especially if she as a fire figure ends up getting resurrected as a Benjen-style ice-wight just like Jon an ice figure got resurrected as a Beric-style fire-wight, and then the two of these two living dead people go off somewhere nobody will ever find them in a thousand years? 

Isn't that pretty good for bittersweet, or would it be sweet-and-sour now? :)

Okay, lets recap:  Ned, Cat, Benjen Robb, Rickon are dead; Shaggy Dog, Lady, Grey Wind and Summer are dead.  Ygritte is dead. Sansa has turned into a cold, calculating, backstabbing Cersei Lite.  Arya, if she lives, has said she won't return to Winterfell, so if she lives she will have lost everything she spent the series trying to recapture and Wolverine will go it alone.  Bran is crippled and robotic.  Jon will presumably renounce all and go live in the North to rebuild the wall, living in isolation and squalor, back where he started.  Dany, Viscerion, Rhaegal all dead, Drogon may die too.  Jamie died without redemption.  

Other than 'not dead' I'm not seeing anything sweet here.

Edited by Cas Stark

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Flightless bird said:

And how do you know this?.... As a big fan of Georges writing, I've been following him for many years and I've never seen him state this in interviews or his "Not a Blog"... If this is true post a link please

George deliberately doesn't explain what he's really doing as an author for A Song of Ice and Fire. That would be giving everything away and destroy the pleasure of his art for his readers. It's pretty clear that almost every possible candidate for being a "hero" in our saga is really a tragic hero with a flaw that's most often fatal just as it was in every Greek or Shakespearian tragedy. We harbour own own defeats within us.

George has specifically written that he wanted to make the ending like the bittersweet ending of The Lord of the Rings in the Scouring of the Shire. You'll remember that war had destroyed the land they returned to and how the main hero, Frodo, could never truly enjoy what he'd achieved and had to go into exile. Only "minor" characters could stick around to rebuild and have relatively normal lives. The main heroes like Bilbo and Frodo and Gandalf left mortal lands forever.

He didn't want black and white with heroes and villains. George has ever and always been far more concerned with the conflicts of the human heart that with actual heroic fantasy with heroes and such. Sansa learned the hard way that life is not a song, and there is no happily ever after for anyone, let alone for Florian and Jonquil.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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5 minutes ago, Cas Stark said:

Okay, lets recap:  Ned, Cat, Benjen Robb, Rickon are dead; Shaggy Dog, Lady, Grey Wind and Summer are dead.  Ygritte is dead. Sansa has turned into a cold, calculating, backstabbing Cersei Lite.  Arya, if she lives, has said she won't return to Winterfell, so if she lives she will have lost everything she spent the series trying to recapture and Wolverine will go it alone.  Bran is crippled and robotic.  Jon will presumably renounce all and go live in the North to rebuild the wall, living in isolation and squalor, back where he started.  Dany, Viscerion, Rhaegal all dead, Drogon may die too.  Jamie died without redemption.  

Other than 'not dead' I'm not seeing anything sweet here.

You can also add Brienne. She was knighted, fucked and then abandoned because Jaime loves Cersei and not her. 

Davos lost his intire family plus shireen and the leader he choose goes into exile. 

Tyrion lost his brother, Danny and seems to not be interested in whores anymore... 

This is a very veeerryyy bitter story... 

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1 minute ago, divica said:

You can also add Brienne. She was knighted, fucked and then abandoned because Jaime loves Cersei and not her. 

Davos lost his entire family plus shireen and the leader he choose goes into exile. 

Tyrion lost his brother, Danny and seems to not be interested in whores anymore... 

This is a very veeerryyy bitter story... 

Hard to disagree with you there.

What I don't understand is why so very many show watchers failed to ever see all this coming. The signs were always there, and you didn't have to listen to Ramsay's "if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention" to figure it out.

Life is pain and unfairness. We get through it as best we can, but it never ends well for anyone. There are no villains who are villains in their own minds, and the only heroes are those of legend where everything has been whitewashed.

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2 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

George deliberately doesn't explain what he's really doing as an author for A Song of Ice and Fire. That would be giving everything away. It's pretty clear that almost every possible candidate for being a "hero" in our saga is really a tragic hero with a flaw that's most often fatal.

George has specifically written that he wanted to make the ending like the bittersweet ending of The Lord of the Rings in the Scouring of the Shire. You'll remember that war had destroyed the land they returned to and how the main hero, Frodo, could never truly enjoy what he'd achieved and had to go into exile. Only "minor" characters could stick around to rebuild and have relatively normal lives. The main heroes like Bilbo and Frodo and Gandalf left mortal lands forever.

He didn't want black and white with heroes and villains. George has ever and always been far more concerned with the conflicts of the human heart that with actual heroic fantasy with heroes and such. Sansa learned the hard way that life is not a song, and there is no happily ever after for anyone, let alone for Florian and Jonquil.

WTF? 

Aragon, legolas and gimly had a sad ending? 

Sam, pipin and merry had a sad ending? 

Frodo going into a mithical elvish land is far from depressing. It is a new aventure for him that had no connections to middle earth besides Sam. 

Nothing in GOT looks like a LOTR ending... 

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Just now, divica said:

WTF? 

Aragon, legolas and gimly had a sad ending? 

Sam, pipin and merry had a sad ending? 

Frodo going into a mithical elvish land is far from depressing. It is a new aventure for him that had no connections to middle earth besides Sam. 

Nothing in GOT looks like a LOTR ending... 

It may not, but we have George on record many times over saying he wanted to try to capture some of that novel's bittersweet ending. Frodo saved the Shire but not for himself.

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1 minute ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Hard to disagree with you there.

What I don't understand is why so very many show watchers failed to ever see all this coming. The signs were always there, and you didn't have to listen to Ramsay's "if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention" to figure it out.

Life is pain and unfairness. We get through it as best we can, but it never ends well for anyone. There are no villains who are villains in their own minds, and the only heroes are those of legend where everything has been whitewashed.

Asoiaf is an epic. This isn t a tragedy... 

There is nothing in the books indicating that 90% of the characters will end up dead, miserable or awful versions of themselves. 

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1 minute ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

It may not, but we have George on record many times over saying he wanted to try to capture some of that novel's bittersweet ending. Frodo saved the Shire but not for himself.

Congrats. You have frodo leaving the shire to go to a completly new happy place to find a place he belongs. 

It isn t happy, but it is very far from sad or meaningless like got... 

 

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3 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

Hard to disagree with you there.

What I don't understand is why so very many show watchers failed to ever see all this coming. The signs were always there, and you didn't have to listen to Ramsay's "if you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention" to figure it out.

Life is pain and unfairness. We get through it as best we can, but it never ends well for anyone. There are no villains who are villains in their own minds, and the only heroes are those of legend where everything has been whitewashed.

I tend to disagree with your last paragraph. No that’s not reality, that’s torture or someone suffering from major depression problems. I don’t understand why reality has become synonymous with suffering, bad endings and bla bla. Reality is what you make of it. 

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39 minutes ago, hallam said:

I am pretty sure that Arya kills the NK in the books as well. Note very carefully how D&D say they chose Arya. 'We have known for three years that'. Not 'we decided'.

 

Please take notice very carefully of what I found:

Game of Thrones season 8 episode 3 "Inside the episode"

D&D report that they "knew it for 3 years" - in the meaning of: They discussed it 3 years ago...

And then start minute 9:35 

Benioff: "We hoped to avoid the expected, and Jon Snow has always been the hero, the one who's been the savior, but it just didn't seem right for us, for this - for this moment..."

Which means: They deliberately decided to take the scene away from Jon Snow and to give to Arya. 

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, divica said:

Asoiaf is an epic. This isn t a tragedy... 

There is nothing in the books indicating that 90% of the characters will end up dead, miserable or awful versions of themselves. 

I more than get your drift, but I haven't done the numbers.  Perhaps you could supply some examples of characters who look like they'll get a happy ending.

But just for fun here, I'll see your “epic” and raise you the original epic of all epics before epic was even a thing: Homer's Iliad.  

Who were the good guys and who were the bad guys in that war, and just how many ended up dead? How many had happy endings?

That's epic.

Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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59 minutes ago, hallam said:

I am pretty sure that Arya kills the NK in the books as well. Note very carefully how D&D say they chose Arya. 'We have known for three years that'. Not 'we decided'.

Except there is no Night King in the books.

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4 minutes ago, CrypticWeirwood said:

I more than get your drift, but I haven't done the numbers.  Perhaps you could supply some examples of characters who look like they'll get a happy ending.

But just for fun here, I'll see your “epic” and raise you the original epic of all epics before epic was even a thing: Homer's Iliad.  

Who were the good guys and who were the bad guys in that war, and just how many ended up dead? How many had happy endings?

That's epic.

Iliad is a tragedy. Odissey is an epic. 

I mean, everybody ends up dead or miserable in the illiad... That is not epic... 

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, divica said:

Iliad is a tragedy. Odissey is an epic. 

I mean, everybody ends up dead or miserable in the illiad... That is not epic... 

I'm pretty sure that if you check out the actual etymology of the word epic in a good dictionary, you'll learn that the word was first created for both the Iliad and the Odyssey, not for just one of them alone.

Origin: A borrowing from Latin. Etymon: Latin epicus.
Etymology: < classical Latin epicus (adjective) relating to the epic genre of poetry (see sense B. 1a), (noun) poet of this genre < Hellenistic Greek ἐπικός relating to the epic genre of poetry < ancient Greek ἔπος word, narrative, song (see epos n.) + -ικός -ic suffix.

A. noun
 
 1a. A poem, typically derived from ancient oral tradition, which celebrates in the form of a continuous narrative the achievements of one or more heroic characters of history or legend.Typical representatives of the genre are the Iliad and Odyssey.

 1b. A book, film, or other creative work resembling or likened to a traditional epic, esp. in portraying heroic deeds and adventures or covering an extended period of time.beast epic, folk epic, national epic, prose epic: see the first element.
....

 4. An event or series of events likened to those in an epic, esp. in being grand in scale or lengthy and arduous.

B. adj.

 1. a. Of or relating to the genre of poetic composition, typically derived from ancient oral tradition, which celebrates in the form of a continuous narrative the achievements of one or more heroic characters of history or legend; designating this genre.Epic cycle: see cycle n.1 6.
 b. Designating a book, film, or other creative work resembling or likened to an epic poem; dealing with heroic exploits and adventures, esp. in a historical context; (more generally) grand in scope or imagination.
2. a. Of a person, event, action, etc.: such as is described in epic poetry; suitable for the subject of an epic poem; characterized by heroic and arduous endeavour; grand in scale or ambition.
 b. colloquial (orig. and chiefly U.S.). Particularly impressive or remarkable; excellent, outstanding.

I'm pretty sure I know what an epic is. Do you? :)

 
Edited by CrypticWeirwood

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22 minutes ago, divica said:

Iliad is a tragedy. Odissey is an epic. 

I mean, everybody ends up dead or miserable in the illiad... That is not epic... 

Whatever you want to call it, the Iliad is indisputably a story about war.

Isn't A Song of Ice and Fire also a story about war?

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