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Ironically, After Falling In Love With GoT For Being Anti-Trope, Many Fans Now Seem To Want...The Tropes???

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27 minutes ago, darmody said:

To be fair, they have killed a lot of Starks. Four, at least. Plus Honorary Stark Theon Reekjoy. And one got crippled and can't make Stark babies. Then there are the wolves. 

Neither Jon, Sansa, nor Arya can produce a legitimate heir named Stark. Though I'm sure there's some legal trick that can keep the line going. 

You forgot Benjen for five. Maybe Talisa by marriage like Cat. And her fetus. 

Sansa can produce a Stark just as Yara a Greyjoy. They'll just have to use the old ways, or the Dornish ones.

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30 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

Yeah because they really established that the kind hearted idealist that was so appalled by the very idea that one of her dragons might have burned a child that she chained them up under the city. yeah they really foreshadowed her burning a whole city full of women and children 

What about her wanting to reduce all the slave cities to dirt? That was a plan she needed to be advised against? This was being a conqueror. I dont even think she is evil or the mad queen or anything. I think she took what she wanted with Fire and Blood.

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3 hours ago, madhikun said:

Right? They should kill Arya or Sansa or Jon. Not gonna happen because it's always been a Stark show. 

 

Ever since day 1 Dany has been painted as the villain - she's the opposing force to Jon Snow. Jon Snow is Ned Stark 2.0. We hailed this series because knights aren't supposed to be in shining plot armor, but Jon Snow has a fortress of it. 

 

So we didn't get a Cersei torture scene, but we knew her and Jaime were probably going to die together. That trope is still there. 

 

 

 

Its the ending. You only kill people in the ending for shock value.

As mentioned earlier I didn’t buy the show or books for the Starks. There’s a world of difference between it being the Stark show and having a bittersweet ending only for this family whilst deciding to spit in the face of everyone who invested in Dany as a character.

Currently I don’t care what happens to them or the world they inhabit or the man who writes this book. 

Dany has been consistently depicted as a badass hero for seven seasons. She hasn’t been the opposing force to Jon Snow ever, with Jon refusing the throne on this season. That is wilfully misleading people. A few colourful pieces of language and the occasional burning don’t amount to killing a million people.

The fact the only way you can frame Danys death is as “we all told you so, hahahahaha” rather than justify it as some kind of tragedy with a moral lesson is telling. 

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Posted (edited)

 

12 minutes ago, Winter prince said:

What about her wanting to reduce all the slave cities to dirt? That was a plan she needed to be advised against? This was being a conqueror. I dont even think she is evil or the mad queen or anything. I think she took what she wanted with Fire and Blood.

She made threats, it is actions that speak louder than words. She wilfully avoided killing the innocent of her own accord. I can't see George bringing her to where she rationalises killing the innocent in pursuit of absolute authority over the people of Westeros. I can see him going down the gradual descent into madness storyline but that would take far more time than two episodes to establish an authentic character development.

Edited by darksellsword

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5 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

 

She made threats, it is actions that speak louder than words. She wilfully avoided killing the innocent of her own accord. I can't see George bringing her to where she rationalises killing the innocent in pursuit of absolute authority over the people of Westeros. I can see him going down the gradual descent into madness storyline but that would take far more time than two episodes to establish an authentic character development.

GRRM can make it much more believable. He does an excellent job of conveying a person's thought process. That's harder to do in a show. I think they showed her willingness to do this "it's  fear then" I think the phrase was than they did with Stannis descent to madness

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11 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Its the ending. You only kill people in the ending for shock value.

As mentioned earlier I didn’t buy the show or books for the Starks. There’s a world of difference between it being the Stark show and having a bittersweet ending only for this family whilst deciding to spit in the face of everyone who invested in Dany as a character.

Currently I don’t care what happens to them or the world they inhabit or the man who writes this book. 

Dany has been consistently depicted as a badass hero for seven seasons. She hasn’t been the opposing force to Jon Snow ever, with Jon refusing the throne on this season. That is wilfully misleading people. A few colourful pieces of language and the occasional burning don’t amount to killing a million people.

The fact the only way you can frame Danys death is as “we all told you so, hahahahaha” rather than justify it as some kind of tragedy with a moral lesson is telling. 

You know it's really refreshing, 5 - 7 years ago this board had only Jon Snow fanboys and I had only one or two Dany supporters with me. I'm so happy our girl has garnered so much support. 

 

But you're delusional if she hasn't been the opposing force to Jon Snow. For years fans have tried to reason who the prince who was promised is, Jon or Dany. Who will take the throne, Jon or Dany. They've never until now been opponents of each other but in terms of in the overall narrative the show has always been about the two of their journeys (plus Tyrion but GRRM decided to boot his importance in like the 4th or 5th book). 

 

I'm hoping GRRM will give us more to go on because the way they're forcing Dany to go this route is so contrived. They took everything from her and it STILL doesn't make sense. 

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1 minute ago, Winter prince said:

GRRM can make it much more believable. He does an excellent job of conveying a person's thought process. That's harder to do in a show. I think they showed her willingness to do this "it's  fear then" I think the phrase was than they did with Stannis descent to madness

Other than rescue the nightswatch from the wildling army, Stannis wasn't really portrayed as a hero on the show. They built Daenerys up to be a heroine over seven seasons. The "it's fear then" comment came in this episode, it really is a character assassination. D&D are in a massive hurry to get this series over and done with, I don't know why people make excuses for the pacing in this narrative, it is horribly rushed.

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10 minutes ago, darksellsword said:

Other than rescue the nightswatch from the wildling army, Stannis wasn't really portrayed as a hero on the show. They built Daenerys up to be a heroine over seven seasons. The "it's fear then" comment came in this episode, it really is a character assassination. D&D are in a massive hurry to get this series over and done with, I don't know why people make excuses for the pacing in this narrative, it is horribly rushed.

The only episode I didnt see a pacing issue with this season was 2. But narrative pacing was destroyed seasons ago when they had to undo the mereenese knot. Since then it's like an out of control freight train going down hill. Well next Sunday we'll see the wreck of conclusion. So much story to tell in an hour

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1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

Who the hell is white washed in this show? Are you sure you're watching the same show?

Umm...Tyrion. 

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5 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

All the tropes are in place. The Starks have saved Winterfell and will live out their days. 

The only character being hurled on the pyre is Daenerys. 

We are getting the happy ending. It’s just that the show and books feel the need to humiliate and ruin my favourite character before all the Stark fan service. 

you are spot on. I was never a big dany fan, but the way this has happened it las left a real bitter taste. it is too dark and depressing. at this stage of the game I wanted tropes, having seen so much pain inflicted on my fav characters., I was happy with a bittersweet ending, but this is not bittersweet. all the hints about jon/dany child? 

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6 minutes ago, Nictarion said:

Umm...Tyrion. 

Yeah, okay. The Imp. He's a good person now, but they had to peel back a lot bad layers to reveal the good.  But he's still only good, hardly perfect. That's character development, not white washing.

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1 minute ago, SansaJonRule said:

Yeah, okay. The Imp. He's a good person now, but they had to peel back a lot bad layers to reveal the good.  But he's still only good, hardly perfect. That's character development, not white washing.

He’s a straight up saint on the show compared to the books. Seriously. Could you imagine show Tyrion raping a sex slave and getting off that she was terrified? He is extremely dark in ASoS and ADwD, and we’ve never seen one bit of that on the show. Hell, GoT even had Shae attack him so he didn’t have to kill her out of anger and jealousy. What’s the worst thing he ever did on the show? Kill Tywin? He’s absolutely been whitewashed. 

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ASOIAF is choc-full of tropes, of course. And that's not a bad thing - a story is built off tropes. Without them, you have no story.

The issue isn't actually tropes, and never has been. It's Willing Suspension of Disbelief. Violations of characterisation and internal world logic draw us out of the story - which is what has happened here. The story has collapsed because we can see the characters' strings.

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46 minutes ago, The Marquis de Leech said:

ASOIAF is choc-full of tropes, of course. And that's not a bad thing - a story is built off tropes. Without them, you have no story.

The issue isn't actually tropes, and never has been. It's Willing Suspension of Disbelief. Violations of characterisation and internal world logic draw us out of the story - which is what has happened here. The story has collapsed because we can see the characters' strings.

I've never understood when people say ASOIAF is anti-trope. The story is full of tropes, almost every character in the story is being written on some trope that has been used in fantasy or sci-fi before. 

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22 minutes ago, Queen‍‍‍‍‍‍ Alysanne‍‍™ said:

I've never understood when people say ASOIAF is anti-trope. The story is full of tropes, almost every character in the story is being written on some trope that has been used in fantasy or sci-fi before. 

GRRM's original plan was to bust tropes or so it seemed.  But you're right all along that was just a ruse.  We thought the killing of Ned Stark was anti-trope because he seemed like a hero; in reality that was just a trope of removing the old heroes to make way for the new ones to grow into the role.  Jon Snow is one of the biggest tropes in the show/books

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3 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Who the hell is white washed in this show? Are you sure you're watching the same show?

 

Saint Tyrion and Jon, for starters.

If you've read the books you'd know both have done some morally ambiguous things which weren't shown in tv show. And both are always portrayed in a noble light.

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Posted (edited)
4 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

Who the hell is white washed in this show? Are you sure you're watching the same show?

Agree. It's like people want the story line spelled out for them, no surprises. I admit this season has been rushed, and I think that's a poor way to end such a good show. However, I do recall being warned that the last season was going to have to be shorter because the cost of CGI was going to be much higher than in previous episodes. (Originally they said it would be like eight episodes but still 10 hours of screen time, but we didn't get that.) You want dragons? Well, you gotta pay for them. Even HBO has budgets. Maybe the producers and HBO execs deserve as much blame as D&D.

 

 

Yes, I didn’t watch the show. Apparently I just cruise around random forums. I somehow know that Willas was in the show, that even the show runners forgot about, they even forgot to kill him. 

‘I hope I don’t open a can of worms but

Spoiler

The grey and tough decisions is what makes the story. When Jon was killed the show didn’t show the truth, that Jon the Night’s Watch’s own leader had declared to march to Winterfell and Marsh was crying while stabbing him. This was a hard decision to make but the Nights Watch believed they made the right decision. It was difficult for Jon too, his own sister was suffering and he didn’t her to go back to Ramsey. So both had their own reasons, and it really makes the reader very conflicted. The show made it into the Nights Watch just hated Jon and the Wildlings, and made them the bad people. When Arya killed Daeron, he was a deserter, but does that mean she has a right to kill him? He may even have been innocent of his initial crime. A singer threatened to oust Tyrion and Tyrion has him killed served as a bowl of brown. Yes, this singer tried to blackmail Tyrion, but does that give Tyrion the right to kill him and have multiple innocent people unknowingly eat him? This is what is missing in the show.

Actually HBO offered resources and an extended season for the last season, and D&D said no.

 

Edited by Crona
I think I should put this in spoilers

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5 minutes ago, Nami said:

Saint Tyrion and Jon, for starters.

If you've read the books you'd know both have done some morally ambiguous things which weren't shown in tv show. And both are always portrayed in a noble light.

This just reminds me of how much smarter and more cunning Jon is in the books.  He was a way different LC of the NW in the book than the show and his character has really missed that.

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6 minutes ago, Winter prince said:

This just reminds me of how much smarter and more cunning Jon is in the books.  He was a way different LC of the NW in the book than the show and his character has really missed that.

Yea he was way better. His Caesar moment really got to me in the books. In the show his death really didn’t mean too much to me

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13 hours ago, Winter prince said:

The people upset about Jaime or Dany remind me of when I first read the Red Wedding.  What a sweet summer child I was back then missing all the hints and clues that it was coming.  I wanted to throw the book, I wanted to stop reading, I would have negatively reviewed that in a heartbeat.

People want what they want.  Introduce someone to GoT today and they will talk about how Ned Stark will take the throne or how unstoppable Drogo is.

These people thought they were going to get their happy ending, but they haven't been paying attention.

So much this. 

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