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Ironically, After Falling In Love With GoT For Being Anti-Trope, Many Fans Now Seem To Want...The Tropes???

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15 hours ago, Cron said:

A huge part of what made GRRM's work so incredibly popular in the first place was the trope busting, yet now, it seems, many people WANT...the trope endings that we (including me) hoped for, dreamed of, and theorized about for years

You hit the nail. 

That's exactly the problem. People are not looking forward to new developments and accept the story, they are angry if it does not work out as they dreamed.

Get real, boy and girls, both books and show was about surprised and unexpected developments. Killing Ned Stark in S1 was tough. Nowadays this would give a shitstorm. Back then it was celebrated as "everyone can die, no one is save".

I really enjoyed S8 so far and E5 in particular. This is a very exciting turning point for Daenerys.

Please, everyone, enjoy the show, simply watch what is happening and don't try to be smarter than the authors. It's their story, not yours.

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It isn't about tropes at all. Ned's death and the RW were beautifully foreshadowed: on first read/watch you're stunned, but then you see the inevitability of it. And there is nothing wrong with tropes at all - ASOIAF has many of them, in fact. People who think the series is all about 'subversion' strike me as very casual fans who only watch or recall 'shocking!1' moments, tbh

This is basically crap writing. They're really proving how limited their talent is without GRRM's books to guide them. But not surprising, as earlier credits for them include Troy and Wolverine - both utterly crap.

As many others have said, it's perfectly reasonable for Dany to do this, PROVIDED the build up is there. Here, it was completely rushed and brainless (along with most other things in S7 and 8 and to a lesser extent, 5 and 6). 

If viewers need to fill in crucial gaps on their own, it's poor writing. If viewers need to watch 'inside the episode' to hear gems like 'she made it personal', it's poor writing. They are phoning it in and it's a shame. Hell, the massive drop in the quality of dialogue speaks for their 'writing ability'. I couldn't get over the fact that the scene focused on one of the most significant elements of the book - Jon revealing his identity to Sansa and Arya - was cut away. LOL! That's what third rate soaps do on the daily. It's like if, in S1, the show would have cut away from Ned and Cersei in the garden right after he said 'I know the truth Jon Arryn died for.' Basically they cannot write real, good dialogue so they chose not to show the Stark sisters' response to Jon's revelation. Again, poor writing. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The subversion of tropes is like the death of important characters... a few times is good, but you can't rely only on killing characters and concious, purposeful subversion of tropes alone in order to create a good story... you need, you know, to build and tell a good story with a coherent plot...

I mean, they could make Jon kill Arya and rape Sansa. They could make Sam become the new Night King. They could make Davos a secret Targaryen and the next king. They could have Tyrion lay an egg and hatch a dragon... all that would be unexpected an surprising... but, would that make a good story?

Edited by Ser Lepus

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6 hours ago, SansaJonRule said:

TV audiences have different expectations than book readers. Even as a reader, I have different expectations for TV/movies. I know people who love this show but can't even remember everyone's names.

Nice quoting my message out of context, you should consider a career in advertising.

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55 minutes ago, Crixus said:

People who think the series is all about 'subversion' strike me as very casual fans

That's true. It is not about subversion.

 

56 minutes ago, Crixus said:

Ned's death and the RW were beautifully foreshadowed: on first read/watch you're stunned, but then you see the inevitability of it.

In hindsight you see so much. But in foresight no one expected Ned's beheading. The same is true for Daenerys' arc.

57 minutes ago, Crixus said:

This is basically crap writing

What exactly is? Daenerys' arc is stunning and believable and was to be expected -- not only in hindsight, that is.

We have had so many threads discussing the potential of Daenerys going mad. It was foreshadowed and very many of us predicted it correctly. 

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58 minutes ago, Crixus said:

As many others have said, it's perfectly reasonable for Dany to do this, PROVIDED the build up is there. Here, it was completely rushed and brainless

Season 8 is a bit rushed in general, but her arc was there all the time, from S1 to S8 and inside S8 there have been so many clear indications of it. What do you expect even more? 

It is not brainless. You just don't like it. Get a grip.

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2 minutes ago, Kajjo said:

Season 8 is a bit rushed in general, but her arc was there all the time, from S1 to S8 and inside S8 there have been so many clear indications of it. What do you expect even more? 

It is not brainless. You just don't like it. Get a grip.

I just explained my view of her 'arc'  and how there is zero sense in her killing thousands of innocents compared to everything she's done in the past. That's my opinion, based on reasoning I've shared. You're free to do the same with examples instead of resorting to statements as you have done above. Perhaps explaining why she decided to kill thousands of innocents instead of targeting Cersei, her enemy, and the Red Keep? The latter would have been organic to her arc; the former, not so much in my view. In fact, the former is abrupt and ill-reasoned and without justification - in a word, brainless.

As for 'get a grip'? LOL. Thanks for your 'advice'. I'll carry on how I like, though. 

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The fans aren’t complaining about the tropes or anti-tropes. We are complaining about how they are written. To use a classic Mauler expression, the plot of season 8 is hemorrhaging. It bleeds from a thousand wounds of bad writing, there are more holes in the plot than it is possible to count and they found their “anti-tropes” on circular reasoning. 

Anticlimactic twists or anti-tropes work in the books because they are well written. The reader expects one thing and then another happens. This isn’t satisfying because it’s unexpected nature, it’s satisfying because what happened makes more realistic sense than what the reader expected. Game of thrones hadn’t made realistic sense since season 6 so tropes or anti-tropes no longer have a legitimacy to call themselves so. If something completely random happens for completely random reasons, it’s not an anti trope or subversion. It’s random bullshit and that’s what season 8 reduced game of thrones to. 

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, Crixus said:

I just explained my view of her 'arc'  and how there is zero sense in her killing thousands of innocents compared to everything she's done in the past. That's my opinion, based on reasoning I've shared. You're free to do the same with examples instead of resorting to statements as you have done above. Perhaps explaining why she decided to kill thousands of innocents instead of targeting Cersei, her enemy, and the Red Keep? The latter would have been organic to her arc; the former, not so much in my view. In fact, the former is abrupt and ill-reasoned and without justification - in a word, brainless.

She broke. It was one drop too much. She was never far from being a mass murderer, but she had voices of reason on her side. She suffered enormous losses. Just recently, she lost two of her children (her dragons), her most trusted and level headed adviser, Jorah, her only true friend and confidant, Missandei. Jon, while loving her never be her partner (as she is her aunt). She is truly alone. She realised that the smallfolk don't love her the way they did on the other side of the sea (Misha), although even there there were exclusions, that the nobility want Jon on the IT, she has been betrayed by Varys. So in my view, she sat there on top of her dragon, and realised that although she won, she truly lost everything, Westeros will never be hers in the sense she longed for for so long. And something broke in her so badly, that the beast that was in her all this series just unleashed. People break under less much pressure and grief than she went through. 

Edited by vko36

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Posted (edited)

Most of people are just unhappy with the end her favorite chracter is going to have.

They treat this book like avengers with #teamice x #teamfire.

We have dany's POV and we know she has good intentions we also can see she is ruthless and has no quarter.

Her means are often dubious too, and she is a conqueror fighting a war. Right now, in The books there is no way she will kill hundreds of innocents for no purpose. But there might be a click. A collection of betrayals paired with her mad heritage and the feeling of dragonriding into battle that makes her loses it. There will probably be no more reason than that and i don't know How Will she feel later.

It's not what you wanted but is not something out of BLUE either. 

 

Ps: now you know the feeling i had when they made stannis burn shireen. I still expect that it might be different in The books but it may be as well be It. So much for my fav... Deal with It.

Edited by joaozinm

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Jaime's arc was always meant to be a circle. He would break up with Cersei, get together with Brienne, but comes back to Cersei to die together. I also suspect valonqar prophecy to be fulfilled when Jaime and Cersei get trapped somewhere, she will ask Jaime to kill her so she won't suffer and he will choke her before dying of his wounds/killing himself. Roof/stones might collapse on still living Jaime though.

Varys probably taken Barristan Selmy place in the show. I suspect when Dany hears of fAegon she will show first signs of madness and Barristan will want to switch sides. 

At this point sans last episode, the whole books storyline is kind of predictable, even with book deviations.

 

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Posted (edited)

I really dont have any favorite characters form the tv-series, most of their adaptions are quite poor. Oberyn is the one they mananged with, but then the rest of dorne was horrid. 

I am quite amazed to see that there are actually people that enjoy this and believes the series are good. I honestly cant seem to find a single good argument in this tread that anything that happens in the series now makes sense, its just people delusional trying to chip for a desperate last breath. Popping in here also kinda make me sad cause evidently there is a lot of people that even didn't understand what made the tv-series good in the beginning. Seeing as I am a bookreader I guess I just have a higher standard or different standards. Atleast IMDB talks the truth even though the ratings there is quite off. 

Alot of people here have proven what makes it so bad. Then there are those that just rather deny a hard truth than face it. 

If HBO just had balls they should have gotten rid of the writers when they promptly wanted to rush the story and just brought in new ones, couldnt possibly have gone worse. Probably could had written a reinforced story given the exclusion already made, that atleast made sense, with inforced character motives that just wasnt decided by a dice. Wow the writing the last seasons are just so sad, cant even grasp how it took them 2 years to produce this season only and then a year for each of the last 3. Just how the f.

Edited by atomragnar

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They needed more writers, rather than trusting something of this magnitude to D&D + 1 extra. 

@Masha, where is the evidence that Jaime's arc was always meant to be a circle? Is it just your opinion? When we last see him in the books he burns Cersei's letter and leaves with Brienne - do you mean in the show? 

I would like an explanation as to why the Jaime Lannister who killed his king to save innocents from being burnt years before he started on the path to any kind of redemption, said in this episode that he didn't 'care much about innocents'. Absolute crap, devoid of any sense, shitting on the actual story depicted in books and show. 

 

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18 hours ago, Cron said:

Many fans seem stunned by the fact that so many unexpected (and anti-trope) things have been happening in Season 8, but IS this really surprising?

A huge part of what made GRRM's work so incredibly popular in the first place was the trope busting, yet now, it seems, many people WANT...the trope endings that we (including me) hoped for, dreamed of, and theorized about for years (and for some of us, like me, that's MANY years since we first read the books).

And so now, the show goes on a major trope-busting spree in Season 8, and people are ...shocked and appalled???

Consider Jaime's death. Now, I think LOTS of fans reacted very poorly to that, basically saying it was mundane and anti-climactic (which it was), but IS it surprising that a major character on GoT got crossed off in a mundane and anti-climactic way?  No, not at all.  Remember how Khal Drogo went out?  D&D had nothing to do with that, far as I know.

Many other tropes have been desperately wished for (including by me, I admit) over the years as well, and many (not all, though) are being brutally crushed by Season 8.   I could make a long list, and maybe you could too.  (Here's another doozy:  Many people, I think, were apoplectic that neither Jon nor Dany crossed off the Night King, despite the fact that it would have been a major literary trope for Jon or Dany to do it.  And I could go on and on with other examples.  Here's another: Jaime's redemption arc?  Trope.  So it turned out in the end that he was actually helplessly addicted to Cersei, even if it resulted in his own senseless destruction, which it did.)

So, how much of a role does all of this play in the EXTREMELY negative reviews and comments out there regarding Season 8?  I think it's a LOT, and if we one day find out that a large percentage of Season 8 actually WILL be canon in the books, then I think that will be pretty amusing.

P.S.  My grade for 805 is a "10."  Will I enjoy the ending in the books even more?  I fully expect to, since books are almost always better than the adaptation, right?

Getting to the same ending is not the same as following the same path.

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I wanted a bittersweet ending - if this is bittersweet, I'd worry about what d&d/grrm consider a tradegy. for me, after years of tough story lines, I wanted a degree of tropes, but in reality it needed more time - at least one more season..

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3 hours ago, Kajjo said:

Please, everyone, enjoy the show, simply watch what is happening and don't try to be smarter than the authors. It's their story, not yours.

Did you just write that? :D This is a FORUM, to discuss the show. I mean if you don't like that people are exchanging thoughts and ideas about it, go put the show on repeat and watch it till eternity, this is a place to express opinions. 

As to Dany: I don't mind about the direction they took with the character, as for the buildup to this, everyone can decide if it was done properly or not. Not very long ago she chained up her dragons to not hurt any more innocents. I think that her change was far too rushed. And I certainly was NOT a fan of her, I haven't rooted for here - its not a football much, all I expect is logical storytelling.

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59 minutes ago, Bambi said:

if you don't like that people are exchanging thoughts

Of course I like to exchange thoughts. But not to tell authors what happens. We can analyse what happened and we can try to predict what will happen but these silly whining about "it should have been different" is nonsense. 

Life itself and storylines in particular are not easy to predict and what GRRM came up with for the Daenerys arc is fine and believable. No matter whether some fanboys like it or not.

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Surprises are only good if they are earned. Anybody can make up a plot twist that makes no sense and call it "surprising". Not that Dany going mad was really a surprise giving all of Varys heavy handed concerns. It's just that his concerns had no actual evidence at that point to support having them. Being retroactively correct doesn't mean they were well founded at the time.  The show forced the plot line in and didn't really care if they built up to it in any meaningful way.

The show presents us with Varys suggesting that Dany has suddenly inherited her father and brother’s mental illness, with no prior symptoms. Remember Dany locked up all of her dragons for months because one of them accidentally killed ONE child while hunting for food. You can't even call what she did blood lust when she stopped burning things for several minutes and just sat there perched on Drogon and then started attacking after the surrender was official. The only purpose of that being to show that she is evil now, nothing grey about this action. 

Being merciless to enemies is hardly comparable to randomly killing innocents. Especially when protecting innocents has been one of her primary concerns since season 1. 

Every past and present leader on the show from every faction has done something that could be considered merciless to enemies, including Jon hanging a 10 year old. Nobody thinks these were signs they might be going mad.

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26 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Surprises are only good if they are earned. Anybody can make up a plot twist that makes no sense and call it "surprising"

Right.

26 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Varys heavy handed concerns. It's just that his concerns had no actual evidence at that point to support having them

I feel different. Very many members here predicted that after the events of E4, particularly the beheading of Missandei. Further evidence was provided throughout all the previous seasons. It is just not true that there were no clues to that possibility. 

Thousands of users discussed Daenerys going mad over and over in hundreds of Youtube videos since quite a time. 

28 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

The show forced the plot line in and didn't really care if they built up to it in any meaningful way.

Yes, season 8 is in general a bit rushed, but Daenerys being on the verge was built up quite well. The lonesome wake feast scene, Jon retracting his affections, she feeling lonely... how much built up do you want?!

30 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Varys suggesting that Dany has suddenly inherited her father and brother’s mental illness, with no prior symptoms

Both advisors had to talk Daenerys out of a lot of bloodshed over and over in Essos. Simply not true what you say here.

30 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

The only purpose of that being to show that she is evil now, nothing grey about this action. 

Not at all. There is a notable difference between snapping out and being evil, between mad and evil anyway. 

The road to evil is paved with good intentions. We see Daenerys again and again as warmhearted person, as wanting the right things, but she also all the time had violent and callous streaks. Extreme greed for power was always one of her primary personality traits. That doesn't come out of nowhere, but was played out very openly and directly. Only some fanboys declared it to be oh-so-good if a pretty young lady is power-hungry. It's not. No matter how pretty, no matter which gender, no matter which age.

33 minutes ago, Tadco26 said:

Especially when protecting innocents has been one of her primary concerns since season 1. 

Only those who bent their knee and she wanted to rule.

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i don't want tropes, i want a proper adaptation of incredible source material, instead of dumbed down dreck. I've felt this way every since Season 2's "Power is power" bullshit. However, this steaming pile of donkey shit just gets dumber and dumber and dumber...

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