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Ironically, After Falling In Love With GoT For Being Anti-Trope, Many Fans Now Seem To Want...The Tropes???

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15 hours ago, Crona said:

Yes, I didn’t watch the show.

I meant that part tongue in cheek--forgot emoticon--my apologies.

Regarding the white washing, I read that as nobody else is shown to have faults in the show, not comparing the show characters to the book characters. Re-reading your post today (without the migraine I had last night--clearly I need to abstain from commenting when I am in that condition) I understand what you meant.

As far as my comment about the producers/HBO execs, I did read/hear somewhere what I said about the cost of CGI affecting the number of episodes. I want to say it was not long after the season 7 ended. I was merely offering it as a possibility (hence the word "maybe"). I had not heard or read anywhere what you said about D&D rejecting HBO's offers. After I recovered from my GoT withdrawal, I stopped following the production news.

It's been a long time since I read the books, and I only read them once. But I really have to wonder, if they had written all the show characters the way they were written in the books, would the average GoT viewer have liked it as much? I think most people like to have characters they can really like, and characters they can really hate. I think that might be more difficult when all the characters are gray to dark.

15 hours ago, Nami said:

If you've read the books you'd know both have done some morally ambiguous things which weren't shown in tv show. And both are always portrayed in a noble light.

Please see comment above. Although I still disagree that Tyrion has always been shown in a noble light, most notably earlier in the series.

 

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1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

I meant that part tongue in cheek--forgot emoticon--my apologies.

Regarding the white washing, I read that as nobody else is shown to have faults in the show, not comparing the show characters to the book characters. Re-reading your post today (without the migraine I had last night--clearly I need to abstain from commenting when I am in that condition) I understand what you meant.

As far as my comment about the producers/HBO execs, I did read/hear somewhere what I said about the cost of CGI affecting the number of episodes. I want to say it was not long after the season 7 ended. I was merely offering it as a possibility (hence the word "maybe"). I had not heard or read anywhere what you said about D&D rejecting HBO's offers. After I recovered from my GoT withdrawal, I stopped following the production news.

It's been a long time since I read the books, and I only read them once. But I really have to wonder, if they had written all the show characters the way they were written in the books, would the average GoT viewer have liked it as much? I think most people like to have characters they can really like, and characters they can really hate. I think that might be more difficult when all the characters are gray to dark.

 

 

Don’t worry about it, I tend to get snarky after these episodes too. No offense was taken :)

Yea and really it was one article I read so honestly we don’t know. I’m sure D&D did try their best with what they had. Show business is a different kind of beast and it’s not something I understand completely. 

I’m not sure what the audience would have thought. It would be fun to see what they would think of it, as I don’t mind grey characters. I’m sure fans would be turned off from it though.  But I tend to like all the characters regardless of how grey they are because it’s fictional and I tend to not get attached to one character.

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24 minutes ago, Crona said:

Don’t worry about it, I tend to get snarky after these episodes too. No offense was taken :)

Good to know. :) I like these forums for the constructive discussions. But some people get down right nasty.

29 minutes ago, Crona said:

Yea and really it was one article I read so honestly we don’t know. I’m sure D&D did try their best with what they had. Show business is a different kind of beast and it’s not something I understand completely. 

There is so much that goes into making an epic show like this. These books are so complex, it can't be easy to adapt it to tv. Could it have been done better, especially this season? Definitely. If HBO did offer them more, I think D&D were stupid not to take it. But I still think it has been very good.

38 minutes ago, Crona said:

I tend to not get attached to one character

I think you are in the minority in that respect!

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There is nothing wrong with tropes. Tropes and archetypes are the foundations of storytelling: that's why you have stories and tales from all over the world, from societies that never met each other, that have similar mythologies. Gonna quote a twitter thread that I agree with completely:

A lot of modern storytellers, critics, and reviewer types lament these things called tropes, literary and rhetorical devices which appear frequently enough to be recognizable. The same goes for archetypes, characters of certain frequencies types (wise old granny, etc). The complaints go that tropes and archetypes are tired and old and no longer interesting. That they constitute lazy storytelling. I assert, though, that tropes and archetypes are not the problem. Shallow application of these are the real issue.

The human brain only has so many possible variations it can embody and comprehend. This is why we can comprise a system of frequent mental health disorders, and also why archetypes speak to us. We actually enjoy familiar patterns, and familiarity makes immersion easier. Stories have been with us as long as we’ve been a species. Toddlers learn beat through stories, and imaginative play is how they share their understanding of the world. We use familiar archetypes as vehicles to simplify the raw data we need to transmit to each other.

(You can read the whole thing here)

The notion that GRRM is a "breaker of tropes" has been, as previously mentioned, highly exaggerated. He doesn't break them as much as he twists them. For example, in a more classical fantasy story, Jon, the "hidden prince", would be immediately proclaimed King and accepted. How to subvert that? Make Jon aware of who he is, have his close circle know, but never crown him and crown the fake prince. There, the trope is there, but not as expected. And it would work depending on how is done. It's not just about Jon acting out of character, but being part of a background, a context, and other players with their own roles.
 
GoT didn't break tropes. They didnt' bother on setting them up to break them. What they did was close to have a character saying "I'm going to the right" and, while she or he is about to turn, shouting "now I'm going to the left!" and expect everybody is so taken by surprised that they mistake that for good storytelling. Say, many horror movies are completely ridiculous, but people get scared and a scare jump that they enjoy, so they feel the movie was enjoyable, even if every character was a moron who acted like a fool and caused everybody get killed for being completely idiotic.

 

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Well, GRRM a while ago an interview was asked if he would change the ending of his books if too many people guessed it correctly, in order to surprise them. I am sure many of you have seen this and I don't have it in my head word for word, but essentially he said "what do you do, change it to something you didn't lay the groundwork for just to surprise people? I might as well have aliens come down, that would be surprising.." 

I think this is what happened in the show and what many people are actually unhappy about. The groundwork was not layed for this or this fast conclusion so it felt off. A lot of times it feels like things D&D are doing are just for pure shock value and no logical conclusion of the groundwork. 

The things that personally bother me a lot is the usage of prophecies just to disregard them in the end, I mean of course they are up to interpretation and some might still come true, but there were some that seemed completely random.  Melisandre's prophecy that Arya would slay the Night King seemed like this: in the 3rd episode, writer realized: "Hey, didn't we have Melisandre say this thing to Arya in a past season.. do you remember? Let's pretend it was a set-up for this all along, we'll just switch the colors around (blue eyes goes last) and no one will notice!"
I am not a spiritual person in real life and the notion of prophecies makes me laugh, so I understand if they say "it's a prophecy, it might not even come true!" but it's a fantasy show... If groundwork has been done for almost a decade then I expect some pay-off.. 

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20 hours ago, Daske said:

People don't make sense a lot of the time!

Linear progression and neat bow-tied storylines are mostly not what happens in real life.

Some people revert to type, some strive and never get where they are going, some go back to smoking after 20 years off it, the sociopath show his true colours after being the helpful neighbour for decades, some get killed before they finish building their house, some close friends die without saying a goodbye and so on.

GRRM was doing this kind of thing all over the places in the books. Would anyone be happy (if not in the books) if show Loras killed a couple of friendly guards just because he was upset? His character has been ruined! Or (if not in the books) Drogo died weakly in bed from infection? He should have gone out in an epic battle with so-and-so, what a disservice to his character! It's just a matter of perspective imo.

 

You know it's clear as day now that GRRM had a reason to kill Ned and Drogo, they didn't just die for shits and giggles and both were supporting characters on top of that; Ned being the mentor figure for many and Drogo being the first person in Dany's life to show her true love and respect. Both deaths elevated the story regardless of how they were killed off. Drogo's death forced Dany into a leadership position she was unprepared for, which made for great story telling. Ned's capture and death did the same for Robb, along with nearly causing Jon to violate his honor and made for great drama for Sansa and Arya's stories as well.

There deaths in no way destroyed any of their character development and in no way destroyed who they were. Drogo died doing what he loved doing most in life and paid for it in the end. Ned died trying to do the right thing as an honest man.

Jamie on the other hand is a main character, with real growth and character development. She's a very different man in ADWD than he was in AGoT's. They basically undid all of his character development and growth..............because reasons.

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On 5/14/2019 at 6:57 AM, RhaenysBee said:

The fans aren’t complaining about the tropes or anti-tropes. We are complaining about how they are written. To use a classic Mauler expression, the plot of season 8 is hemorrhaging. It bleeds from a thousand wounds of bad writing, there are more holes in the plot than it is possible to count and they found their “anti-tropes” on circular reasoning. 

Anticlimactic twists or anti-tropes work in the books because they are well written. The reader expects one thing and then another happens. This isn’t satisfying because it’s unexpected nature, it’s satisfying because what happened makes more realistic sense than what the reader expected. Game of thrones hadn’t made realistic sense since season 6 so tropes or anti-tropes no longer have a legitimacy to call themselves so. If something completely random happens for completely random reasons, it’s not an anti trope or subversion. It’s random bullshit and that’s what season 8 reduced game of thrones to. 

Hmm.  Interesting thoughts, there.

So, what have your grades been for the Season 8 episodes so far, then?  If they are not good so far, hopefully the show can finish with a strong episode for everyone on Sunday.

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1 hour ago, Cron said:

Hmm.  Interesting thoughts, there.

So, what have your grades been for the Season 8 episodes so far, then?  If they are not good so far, hopefully the show can finish with a strong episode for everyone on Sunday.

6, 7, 1, 3, 1. 

I think the show is way beyond redemption or recovery. I’m expecting the absolute worst and honestly even if they did their best (which I know from experience they didn’t) episodes 3-4–5 have wounded the entire series so mortally that they even destroyed the chance of so much as a mediocre finale. It just can’t be not poor after the “plot” they have “written” these past 3 episodes. 

But hey, I’m happy for anybody who’s still able to enjoy the show and ignore all its blatant idiocy. I wish I were able to do the same. 

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, RhaenysBee said:

I think the show is way beyond redemption or recovery. I’m expecting the absolute worst and honestly even if they did their best (which I know from experience they didn’t) episodes 3-4–5 have wounded the entire series so mortally that they even destroyed the chance of so much as a mediocre finale. It just can’t be not poor after the “plot” they have “written” these past 3 episodes.

I fully agree.
It doesn't even matter if everything in episode 6 unfolds exactly in the matter that I personally currently want it to (and it wont), it still wouldn't be able to save the season as a whole, nor the ending, due to the path that the absolutely atrocious episodes 3, 4 and 5 this season has forced the characters and general narrative into. It just can't. 

Almost every still living character is either ruined or so void of character that there is no way to undo what has been done to them in a single episode.
Daenerys is the prime example of this, but we can take someone far less divisive: Tyrion.
Tyrion has been a stupid, contradictory fool for almost 3 seasons now. The show suddenly turning heel (ignoring how immersion-breaking it be) and turning him into the smart, witty, intelligent dwarf we all loved from the earlier season would not save his character at this point. He would've still be a character who was a stupid, contradictory fool for 3 seasons, and who's actions helped forge the ending we're getting (and who the vast majority of us will hate.)

It genuinely is too late to turn this ship around. Might as well steer straight for the iceberg and then just hope for the best, even if you know that it's a forlorn hope.

Edited by MinscS2

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Posted (edited)

It's pretty clear that D & D's approach is : "Wouldn't it be unexpected if this ultimately happened? Let's do that in the future and conform the existing plot to serve that end." Hence all the plot holes and narrative cul-de-sacs.

Whereas I feel what GRRM does is build the story in real time, so to speak, and then decide on possible surprises as the forks in the road develop (as opposed to predetermined destinations.) Even though he knows the major beats as the story's creator, I think this is why his books have increasingly grown in size; there is often more logic/plot to work out between points A and B than he originally anticipated. But he still does the work to get there (even if it takes a decade! <_<)

To me, this is the essence of the problem of the post-book show; I could (potentially) forgive some of the teen-drama schlock writing if the story progressed logically.

 

Edited by Chris is my name

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I didn't fall in love with it for being anti-Trope, I fell in love with it because it told a great story, and since season 5 it;s been an awful nonsensical story and I fell out of love with it.

Trope, anti-trope, are complete nonsense.  It's like trying to be all black and white, a good story should be grey and have elements of both. Sometimes tropes exist for a reason, and sometimes you need to go against the grain.  A good storyteller weave both into his story as they are needed.

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On 5/14/2019 at 11:04 AM, Kajjo said:

I really enjoyed S8 so far and E5 in particular. This is a very exciting turning point for Daenerys.

Please, everyone, enjoy the show, simply watch what is happening and don't try to be smarter than the authors. It's their story, not yours.

Emergency Awesome, is that you?

Yeah, very exciting. I mean Daenerys killing hundreds of thousands of people because she heard bells ringing. How cool is that? Kind of forgot about Cersei, but whatever. Let's spend millions of CGI budget on total carnage.

It's hard not to be smarter than the authors when they say garbage like "Dany kind of forgot about the Iron Fleet" and in one episode dragons are extremely vulnerable and in the other the lay waste with their nuclear breaths of doom like it's nothing.

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1 hour ago, RhaenysBee said:

6, 7, 1, 3, 1. 

Yikes.

Will you still read the last 2 books when they come out, or are you going to walkaway?

1 hour ago, RhaenysBee said:

I think the show is way beyond redemption or recovery. I’m expecting the absolute worst and honestly even if they did their best (which I know from experience they didn’t) episodes 3-4–5 have wounded the entire series so mortally that they even destroyed the chance of so much as a mediocre finale. It just can’t be not poor after the “plot” they have “written” these past 3 episodes. 

Yikes.  So will you finish it out, or not even watch the last episode?

1 hour ago, RhaenysBee said:

But hey, I’m happy for anybody who’s still able to enjoy the show and ignore all its blatant idiocy. I wish I were able to do the same. 

I think we should all heed the wisdom of GRRM himself, who basically said the books are the books, and the show is the show.   

I view them as separate "universes" in an infinite multiverse, and each brings me enormous satisfaction in its own way.

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1 hour ago, MinscS2 said:

I fully agree.
It doesn't even matter if everything in episode 6 unfolds exactly in the matter that I personally currently want it to (and it wont), it still wouldn't be able to save the season as a whole, nor the ending, due to the path that the absolutely atrocious episodes 3, 4 and 5 this season has forced the characters and general narrative into. It just can't. 

Almost every still living character is either ruined or so void of character that there is no way to undo what has been done to them in a single episode.
Daenerys is the prime example of this, but we can take someone far less divisive: Tyrion.
Tyrion has been a stupid, contradictory fool for almost 3 seasons now. The show suddenly turning heel (ignoring how immersion-breaking it be) and turning him into the smart, witty, intelligent dwarf we all loved from the earlier season would not save his character at this point. He would've still be a character who was a stupid, contradictory fool for 3 seasons, and who's actions helped forge the ending we're getting (and who the vast majority of us will hate.)

It genuinely is too late to turn this ship around. Might as well steer straight for the iceberg and then just hope for the best, even if you know that it's a forlorn hope.

Yes, exactly. 

If you burn down your kitchen but manage to put nice tiles on the charred walls, it still won’t make a good kitchen, because the cabinets are blackened and broken, the appliances don’t work and the air stinks of smoke.

The saddest thing is that I don’t care how they end it. I don’t care about the characters, there aren’t any more plotlines to resolve. They basically just have another 75 minutes to clean up the Daenerys incident and do more CGI. 

2 minutes ago, Cron said:

Yikes.

Will you still read the last 2 books when they come out, or are you going to walkaway?

Yikes.  So will you finish it out, or not even watch the last episode?

I think we should all heed the wisdom of GRRM himself, who basically said the books are the books, and the show is the show.   

I view them as separate "universes" in an infinite multiverse, and each brings me enormous satisfaction in its own way.

I don’t believe in the last two books. I know they aren’t like Santa Clause but they have kinda of felt like that for the past 2 years. If by any miracle Martin releases WoW in 2019 I’ll probably read it because the rage the show invoked will still be working in me. If not, I don’t see why I would. 

I will watch the last episode, not because I’m interested in how the show ends (it was over two weeks ago), but because I’m interested in the case study of what HBO did. 

I’m not comparing the show to the books, I maybe did for season 2 and 3, but not since. It’s not like I’ve always been a hater of the show, you know. For season 4-6 the show had its chance from me. I was 100% open and ready to accept any differentiation from the books, I was the person who defend the show in all the show vs book battles. This very forum has all those posts saved in its server. If I went back to the season 5-6 threads, I would find my posts there defending D&D, putting faith in their concept, trying to see the reason behind their decisions. Then season 6 episode 7 happened. A stab in the stomach, but we all know that’s survivable. Then season 6 episode 10 happened. I suppose that was the breaking point for me that crippled the show. Then season 8 episode 3 happened and basically cut the show off life support. It’s over and I’m done and I’m saying this as someone who did give them a chance. /rant 

 

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Posted (edited)

i've noticed for a long time now that the more popular a series becomes, the more embarrassingly dumber the fanbase becomes. i've seen it happen with breaking bad, the walking dead, and now this dumpsterfire of a season. once a tv series becomes mainstream, the normies start flooding in, binging through the seasons one time and suddenly they know more than people who have been following/obsessing over it for years. these people are a complete waste of time to reason with. cognitive dissonance is a hell of a drug and if you think you can take those rose-tinted glasses off of the fanboys' and fangirls' favorite characters, dream on.

i knew jaime was an irredeemable character ever since he tried to murder a child....twice. you don't just bounce back from being a full-blown sociopath. that's not how human psychology works. and anyone who couldn't see that he was manipulating brienne is beyond delusional. B-B-BUT WAIT A MINUTE! HE STOPPED THE MAD KING! HE WAS A HERO! wow, so because he's not an avid supporter of genocide makes him a "good" character? get fucking real. if anything, it reinforced his cruel nature after his actions caused only more contempt for him as a kingslayer and later on as a cripple. and i honestly wouldn't call his death anti-climactic. i've noticed a bit of symbolism in some of the deaths this season. jorah dies protecting dany, the hound dies into a pit of fire, and jaime and cersei die as their kingdom is literally falling apart. if anything, edd tollett was the definition of an anti-climactic death. his death was hardly a blip on the screen before moving on with the story. which is kind of harsh for a character that has been around since pretty much the beginning.

then there's dany.....my god. the denial is strong in dany fans. if you couldn't see the numerous warning signs that dany would inevitably become another tyrant, then you never will. the people arguing that the build-up to this was poorly written and rushed are absolutely right, but to think that she was supposed to come out of this story as virtuous is the same thing i've seen from plenty of other of series where [insert favorite character] can do no wrong. the mental gymnastics of people trying to rationalize a character's shitty behavior is exhausting to listen to. all i can say is that the team daenerys tears this past week have been delicious and plentiful, to say the least.

Edited by the red god

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6 hours ago, RhaenysBee said:

I don’t believe in the last two books. I know they aren’t like Santa Clause but they have kinda of felt like that for the past 2 years. If by any miracle Martin releases WoW in 2019 I’ll probably read it because the rage the show invoked will still be working in me. If not, I don’t see why I would. 

I will watch the last episode, not because I’m interested in how the show ends (it was over two weeks ago), but because I’m interested in the case study of what HBO did. 

I’m not comparing the show to the books, I maybe did for season 2 and 3, but not since. It’s not like I’ve always been a hater of the show, you know. For season 4-6 the show had its chance from me. I was 100% open and ready to accept any differentiation from the books, I was the person who defend the show in all the show vs book battles. This very forum has all those posts saved in its server. If I went back to the season 5-6 threads, I would find my posts there defending D&D, putting faith in their concept, trying to see the reason behind their decisions. Then season 6 episode 7 happened. A stab in the stomach, but we all know that’s survivable. Then season 6 episode 10 happened. I suppose that was the breaking point for me that crippled the show. Then season 8 episode 3 happened and basically cut the show off life support. It’s over and I’m done and I’m saying this as someone who did give them a chance. /rant 

 

Was your problem with 803 that Arya crossed off the Night King, or other production issues?

Will you give the new spin-off series a try, or no?

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On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2019 at 12:15 PM, sifth said:

You know it's clear as day now that GRRM had a reason to kill Ned and Drogo, they didn't just die for shits and giggles and both were supporting characters on top of that; Ned being the mentor figure for many and Drogo being the first person in Dany's life to show her true love and respect. Both deaths elevated the story regardless of how they were killed off. Drogo's death forced Dany into a leadership position she was unprepared for, which made for great story telling. Ned's capture and death did the same for Robb, along with nearly causing Jon to violate his honor and made for great drama for Sansa and Arya's stories as well.

There deaths in no way destroyed any of their character development and in no way destroyed who they were. Drogo died doing what he loved doing most in life and paid for it in the end. Ned died trying to do the right thing as an honest man.

Jamie on the other hand is a main character, with real growth and character development. She's a very different man in ADWD than he was in AGoT's. They basically undid all of his character development and growth..............because reasons. 

Yeah she would be a very different man! :-)

But the reason is obvious. He really did love Cersei beyond everything. This undoes nothing. He strived to become a better person, to do the right thing, but kept falling short. He is a flawed character. The idea of finally finding yourself in a happy place, respected and loved and then throwing it all away is as old as the hills.

Why do people go back to smoking if they know it may kill them even after years off the stuff? Why do people go back to old abusive relationships after finally finding a nice partner.

Love, however illogical or crazy is not just 'reasons'.

 

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24 minutes ago, Daske said:

Yeah she would be a very different man! :-)

But the reason is obvious. He really did love Cersei beyond everything. This undoes nothing. He strived to become a better person, to do the right thing, but kept falling short. He is a flawed character. The idea of finally finding yourself in a happy place, respected and loved and then throwing it all away is as old as the hills.

Why do people go back to smoking if they know it may kill them even after years off the stuff? Why do people go back to old abusive relationships after finally finding a nice partner.

Love, however illogical or crazy is not just 'reasons'.

 

Yea, yea, my Spelling sucks.

 

Sorry, but I call bullshit on that excuse.

They basically gave us season 1 Jamie, without giving us any reason for him to be season 1 Jamie again. The whole “it was the magic of love” excuse is such a cop out to be honest. You might as well say “because reasons” because your excuse makes just as much sense. People don’t randomly stumble back into bad habits, they almost always have a REASON for doing it, usually it’s one stress related. 

 

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1 minute ago, sifth said:

Yea, yea, my Spelling sucks.

 

Sorry, but I call bullshit on that excuse.

They basically gave us season 1 Jamie, without giving us any reason for him to be season 1 Jamie again. The whole “it was the magic of love” excuse is such a cop out to be honest. You might as well say “because reasons” because your excuse makes just as much sense. People don’t randomly stumble back into bad habits, they almost always have a REASON for doing it, usually it’s one stress related.  

 

It's not an excuse; it's what happened. There on screen. It's not random; it is for the reason of undying messed-up love clearly between them expressed to us many times over the years (not just in season 1). It's not out of the blue.

He has always loved her. And at no time has this not been the case, even when they have been at the point of killing each other. He tried to move on but couldn't. Should grey characters should only be certain shades of grey? Only move in one linear direction?

I don't see this as an even remotely controversial move by Jaime. It's tragic in many ways - you could even say honourable - he knew there was a big chance it would just be for them to die together.

 

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6 minutes ago, Daske said:

It's not an excuse; it's what happened. There on screen. It's not random; it is for the reason of undying messed-up love clearly between them expressed to us many times over the years (not just in season 1). It's not out of the blue.

He has always loved her. And at no time has this not been the case, even when they have been at the point of killing each other. He tried to move on but couldn't. Should grey characters should only be certain shades of grey? Only move in one linear direction?

I don't see this as an even remotely controversial move by Jaime. It's tragic in many ways - you could even say honourable - he knew there was a big chance it would just be for them to die together.

 

Why do people keep thinking Jaime had some love for his children?

He didn't even Care...ALL she cared was Cersei.

Do i need to remind that he had sex on top of joffrey fresh grave?

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