Jump to content
Cron

Ironically, After Falling In Love With GoT For Being Anti-Trope, Many Fans Now Seem To Want...The Tropes???

Recommended Posts

Many fans seem stunned by the fact that so many unexpected (and anti-trope) things have been happening in Season 8, but IS this really surprising?

A huge part of what made GRRM's work so incredibly popular in the first place was the trope busting, yet now, it seems, many people WANT...the trope endings that we (including me) hoped for, dreamed of, and theorized about for years (and for some of us, like me, that's MANY years since we first read the books).

And so now, the show goes on a major trope-busting spree in Season 8, and people are ...shocked and appalled???

Consider Jaime's death. Now, I think LOTS of fans reacted very poorly to that, basically saying it was mundane and anti-climactic (which it was), but IS it surprising that a major character on GoT got crossed off in a mundane and anti-climactic way?  No, not at all.  Remember how Khal Drogo went out?  D&D had nothing to do with that, far as I know.

Many other tropes have been desperately wished for (including by me, I admit) over the years as well, and many (not all, though) are being brutally crushed by Season 8.   I could make a long list, and maybe you could too.  (Here's another doozy:  Many people, I think, were apoplectic that neither Jon nor Dany crossed off the Night King, despite the fact that it would have been a major literary trope for Jon or Dany to do it.  And I could go on and on with other examples.  Here's another: Jaime's redemption arc?  Trope.  So it turned out in the end that he was actually helplessly addicted to Cersei, even if it resulted in his own senseless destruction, which it did.)

So, how much of a role does all of this play in the EXTREMELY negative reviews and comments out there regarding Season 8?  I think it's a LOT, and if we one day find out that a large percentage of Season 8 actually WILL be canon in the books, then I think that will be pretty amusing.

P.S.  My grade for 805 is a "10."  Will I enjoy the ending in the books even more?  I fully expect to, since books are almost always better than the adaptation, right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The people upset about Jaime or Dany remind me of when I first read the Red Wedding.  What a sweet summer child I was back then missing all the hints and clues that it was coming.  I wanted to throw the book, I wanted to stop reading, I would have negatively reviewed that in a heartbeat.

People want what they want.  Introduce someone to GoT today and they will talk about how Ned Stark will take the throne or how unstoppable Drogo is.

These people thought they were going to get their happy ending, but they haven't been paying attention.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Winter prince said:

The people upset about Jaime or Dany remind me of when I first read the Red Wedding.  What a sweet summer child I was back then missing all the hints and clues that it was coming.  I wanted to throw the book, I wanted to stop reading, I would have negatively reviewed that in a heartbeat.

People want what they want.  Introduce someone to GoT today and they will talk about how Ned Stark will take the throne or how unstoppable Drogo is.

These people thought they were going to get their happy ending, but they haven't been paying attention.

Exactly, exactly, and exactly.

This isn't trope fantasy fiction, this is Game of Thrones.

It is known.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)

No, my problem is the books were not properly adapted. They left out everything that made every character grey and made Dany go dark in a very sudden turn. The truth is every character has flaws and none are pure but the problem is they white wash every other character and make one character very dark. Now it’s actually more cliche than ever. 

Edited by Crona

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, Winter prince said:

The people upset about Jaime or Dany remind me of when I first read the Red Wedding.  What a sweet summer child I was back then missing all the hints and clues that it was coming.  I wanted to throw the book, I wanted to stop reading, I would have negatively reviewed that in a heartbeat.

People want what they want.  Introduce someone to GoT today and they will talk about how Ned Stark will take the throne or how unstoppable Drogo is.

These people thought they were going to get their happy ending, but they haven't been paying attention.

Yes that is what makes the Red Wedding so good. It's certainly shocking but it's heavily foreshadowed and makes perfect sense within the context of the story. 

Now compare that with Jaime's breaking with Cersei at the end of last season and finding happiness with Brienne only to suddenly head back to die in Cersei's arms. How did that make any sense? 

Does it make any sense for Dany to suddenly start slaughtering the people of King's Landing by the thousands after she had already won? Mad Queen Dany simply wasn't anywhere close to properly developed. She just did an inexplicable about face.

You have to develop these things. Characters doing things and and events happening in defiance of all logic and previous character development is certainly shocking but not in a way that is a credit to the writer. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cron said:

Many fans seem stunned by the fact that so many unexpected (and anti-trope) things have been happening in Season 8, but IS this really surprising?

Yes. But for very different reasons that you state. Each show (and each business to a larger degree) has a group of customers they appeal to in the first place. And Game of Thrones has appealed to the classic fantasy tropes for a few seasons now. Remember when the Hound butchered a child over Joeffrey's sword at the very beginning of our story ? That is not what the last seasons were about. Those were about plot armor and no consequences for the main cast. The show appealed to watchers wanting the fantasy cliche. It changed tone. And now it changes tone again. That is the problem I see: different groups of customers and a hopping between the styles. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Cron said:

Many fans seem stunned by the fact that so many unexpected (and anti-trope) things have been happening in Season 8, but IS this really surprising?

A huge part of what made GRRM's work so incredibly popular in the first place was the trope busting, yet now, it seems, many people WANT...the trope endings that we (including me) hoped for, dreamed of, and theorized about for years (and for some of us, like me, that's MANY years since we first read the books).

And so now, the show goes on a major trope-busting spree in Season 8, and people are ...shocked and appalled???

Consider Jaime's death. Now, I think LOTS of fans reacted very poorly to that, basically saying it was mundane and anti-climactic (which it was), but IS it surprising that a major character on GoT got crossed off in a mundane and anti-climactic way?  No, not at all.  Remember how Khal Drogo went out?  D&D had nothing to do with that, far as I know.

Many other tropes have been desperately wished for (including by me, I admit) over the years as well, and many (not all, though) are being brutally crushed by Season 8.   I could make a long list, and maybe you could too.  (Here's another doozy:  Many people, I think, were apoplectic that neither Jon nor Dany crossed off the Night King, despite the fact that it would have been a major literary trope for Jon or Dany to do it.  And I could go on and on with other examples.  Here's another: Jaime's redemption arc?  Trope.  So it turned out in the end that he was actually helplessly addicted to Cersei, even if it resulted in his own senseless destruction, which it did.)

So, how much of a role does all of this play in the EXTREMELY negative reviews and comments out there regarding Season 8?  I think it's a LOT, and if we one day find out that a large percentage of Season 8 actually WILL be canon in the books, then I think that will be pretty amusing.

P.S.  My grade for 805 is a "10."  Will I enjoy the ending in the books even more?  I fully expect to, since books are almost always better than the adaptation, right?

I think with regard to some of these "busted tropes" (especially your example of Jamie's ending) it isn't so much that people are upset that they happened, but more about the way they happened. Ultimately, much of this just feels rushed and not quite earned. Sure Jamie's arc to redemption is a trope, and his deciding to forgo his path to honor to be with Cersei upends that trope, but I would've been ok with that had his decision been more than a spur of the moment thing. If he had been given the time to wrestle with his conscience and eventually realize Cersei is what truly mattered to him that would still have been anti-trope, but it would have felt like a continuation of his story instead of a random character change.

As far as how Khal Drogo went out, it wasn't really all that quick or anti-climactic. His injury and fake healing followed by his death by Dany happened over a couple of episodes. While that isn't much time, and having a character built up as a world beating warrior only to die in the way he did might seem mundane, it actually was a huge catalyst for the story and Dany's transformation. Jamie's choices on the other hand happened lighting fast and because of him, instead of to him. And because this is the end of the story, it felt meaningless in a way that Drogo's death didn't.

Anyway, my two cents ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Darling, the books never were this ridiculous "lolololo every1 can diieeeeee!!11! Subvert all da Tropayz! lolololol" fest *some* people make them out to be.

And I always find it so laughable when someone goes "first the fandom wanted this, and now they want the opposite???" as if people are too stupid to realize that a group of people can have different opinions on a topic and the ones that scream for A Song of Ice and Fire to "subvert all the tropez!!!" might not be the same individuals who are not happy about that.

Plus, subversion of tropes doesn't excuse horseshit writing. Which is the actual problem since Season 5.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

We don't want tropes.

We want a good story with strong, consistent character arcs and without plot holes you can fly a plane through.

I think that this isn t really true.

First tropes aren t bad. The problem is if there are too many tropes that end up making the story predictable. Second I think we want a satisfactory ending for the characters we have known for years.

Having something expected happening that is anti trope but leads the characters into an unsatisfactory end would also suck. And I am not saying that the characters should have an happy ending. I am saying that their ending must be satisfactory wether it is good or bad.

And watching this season I don t feel satisfied with any character ending that I know of.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Orphalesion said:

Darling, the books never were this ridiculous "lolololo every1 can diieeeeee!!11! Subvert all da Tropayz! lolololol" fest *some* people make them out to be.

And I always find it so laughable when someone goes "first the fandom wanted this, and now they want the opposite???" as if people are too stupid to realize that a group of people can have different opinions on a topic and the ones that scream for A Song of Ice and Fire to "subvert all the tropez!!!" might not be the same individuals who are not happy about that.

Plus, subversion of tropes doesn't excuse horseshit writing. Which is the actual problem since Season 5.

I agree completly. 

I dont know why so many people are fixed that asoiaf will break all tropes...

I think it is pretty obvious grrm gives a lot of tropes and plot armor to his main characters while being completly unpredictable with secondary characters that enrich the story. The thing is that when we start Reading we don t know who are his main characters and some people think it was ned  when in the end he was only a secondary character in the story.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, David Selig said:

Game of Thrones "anti-tropeness" has always been way overstated. Jon Snow is the ultimate fantasy cliche, for example. 

But...is that true if Jon is not The Prince That Was Promised, and not the person who wins the Iron Throne?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Cron said:

But...is that true if Jon is not The Prince That Was Promised, and not the person who wins the Iron Throne?

hes likely wont be. i think there will be no throne at the end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some people don't seem to realize that everything that happened, was always a possibility. I didn't like Jaime's death, I thought he deserved better than to die unnecessarily with Cersei, however, it makes sense that he just couldn't let her go. She's like a drug, no matter how hard he tried to get away from her, he always ended up back in her arms, he fed his impulses and allowed his biggest weakness to prosperous, something that has happened throughout the show, do I wish he had a different end? Yeah, but I'm not going to whine about it either .

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, starklover said:

hes likely wont be. i think there will be no throne at the end.

Same, I'm pretty sure Daenerys destroyed it anyway, she certainly won't be Queen and I really don't think anyone else wants it. Its caused nothing but death and destruction, what's wrong with democracy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Winter prince said:

The people upset about Jaime or Dany remind me of when I first read the Red Wedding.  What a sweet summer child I was back then missing all the hints and clues that it was coming.  I wanted to throw the book, I wanted to stop reading, I would have negatively reviewed that in a heartbeat.

People want what they want.  Introduce someone to GoT today and they will talk about how Ned Stark will take the throne or how unstoppable Drogo is.

These people thought they were going to get their happy ending, but they haven't been paying attention.

This^ 

I still don’t get how people haven’t figured out that this is not a story about happy endings. It’s not a story that takes you where it’s leading either - so much so that sometimes it does just to keep you on your toes. You might know what’s coming next or you might not, but the only thing you know for sure is that you really don’t know for sure. That’s why the story is so damn good. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Cron said:

Many fans seem stunned by the fact that so many unexpected (and anti-trope) things have been happening in Season 8, but IS this really surprising?

A huge part of what made GRRM's work so incredibly popular in the first place was the trope busting, yet now, it seems, many people WANT...the trope endings that we (including me) hoped for, dreamed of, and theorized about for years (and for some of us, like me, that's MANY years since we first read the books).

And so now, the show goes on a major trope-busting spree in Season 8, and people are ...shocked and appalled???

Consider Jaime's death. Now, I think LOTS of fans reacted very poorly to that, basically saying it was mundane and anti-climactic (which it was), but IS it surprising that a major character on GoT got crossed off in a mundane and anti-climactic way?  No, not at all.  Remember how Khal Drogo went out?  D&D had nothing to do with that, far as I know.

Many other tropes have been desperately wished for (including by me, I admit) over the years as well, and many (not all, though) are being brutally crushed by Season 8.   I could make a long list, and maybe you could too.  (Here's another doozy:  Many people, I think, were apoplectic that neither Jon nor Dany crossed off the Night King, despite the fact that it would have been a major literary trope for Jon or Dany to do it.  And I could go on and on with other examples.  Here's another: Jaime's redemption arc?  Trope.  So it turned out in the end that he was actually helplessly addicted to Cersei, even if it resulted in his own senseless destruction, which it did.)

So, how much of a role does all of this play in the EXTREMELY negative reviews and comments out there regarding Season 8?  I think it's a LOT, and if we one day find out that a large percentage of Season 8 actually WILL be canon in the books, then I think that will be pretty amusing.

P.S.  My grade for 805 is a "10."  Will I enjoy the ending in the books even more?  I fully expect to, since books are almost always better than the adaptation, right?

Jaime's death is whatever. I guess I am the fan who anticipates things happening but very rarely expects it done ONE way and then loses my mind if that doesn't happen. I've expected Jaime to die since about 2004ish, the way didn't much matter and I thought this was actually somewhat fitting, because he goes down with Cersei who he (sadly) truly loves.

I would have liked Cersei to have a more long, drawn out death but again, back to Jaime, it was fairly fitting, as insuperable as they were. 

We got Clegane-Bowl. It wasn't epic, but it was nice to see them duke it out. I had held out hope that Sandor would win and return north and serve as a new lord of, say, the Dreadfort (or any of the now seemingly empty houses in the North). But I'm not upset this didn't happen. It was a bit TOO care-bearish to actually think it WOULD happen.

Varys dying was lame, but didn't upset me. I just think of all the kings and monarchs he has served, suddenly now he loses it and slips up...meh whatever.

The reason I think this whole SEASON has been AWFUL is the accelerated time lines that D&D essentially forced upon themselves and the massive plot holes left because of it. I think the books will show a more indepth and faithful showing of Dany losing her shit. 

The cinematography from this episode was dreadful....I felt like it was 2 or 3 scenes of Jon, Davos, Varys, Tyrion. Then 30 scenes of a dragon burning a defenseless city and 50 scenes of Arya running through the soot filled streets. They could have done SO much more in these episodes to actually move the plot forward. But instead they have gone for these 80ish minute episodes that have 60ish minutes focused on one thread that just repeats OVER AND OVER instead of actually moving anything forward. It's pretty painful. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's not about tropes for me - it's about paying up set-ups and, above all, not rushing things. Especially when HBO had a blank cheque and 10-episode long seasons with your names on it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×