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Tyrion1991

About Jorah....

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Dany becoming Mad Queen ruins Jorahs story. Every time he saved her, he has allowed a monster to live who would kill millions of innocents.

You can never watch any of his scenes without knowing that he has fundamentally misjudged the character. He offered his sword to Jon saying that he could pass it on to their children; not going to happen. In fact, it’s quite likely going to be that blade Jon uses to murder Daenerys before plonking his backside on the throne.

His whole dramatic sacrifice for her was totally foolish. Dany going mad because a coin landed the wrong way, means you are being told that he should have left her to die. 

This whole Mad Queen plot leaves me with a sick taste in my mouth. It’s totally ruined the series for me. 

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Love can be unjustified. Love in essence is never about being justified.

Jorah's story was about a knight on redemption, of loving and protecting Daenerys. That's fine for me.

9 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

This whole Mad Queen plot leaves me with a sick taste in my mouth. It’s totally ruined the series for me. 

It hasn't for me. It was foreshadowed so much in the show, in almost all seasons. Daenerys is not loved, so she tries fear. She freaks out and is Queen of the Ashes -- we heard this so often. You cannot be really surprised if you watched the show.

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Actually you can because whenever she's done this in the past, there's been some reasonable justification for it: she burnt slave masters and general assholes, or people who betrayed her, or people who refused her terms of surrender: they were executed, whether hanged, beheaded or burnt is irrelevant. People are also trotting out her reaction to Viserys' death as some sort of proof which is hilarious: he bullied, beat and tormented her, sold her, and then threatened her and her unborn child. Her reaction at his death was, again, reasonable given the context. 

She always tried protecting the innocent, and this was made abundantly clear throughout the show: breaker of chains. For her to murder thousands of innocents the way she did makes zero sense, is utterly out of character and a pathetic left turn. Her entire raison d etre was claiming the Iron Throne and she's shown that claiming power goes hand in hand with earning the love of the downtrodden/common people. Hell, she said 'mercy is our strength' in the same episode. Lol. 

It would've been far more plausible had she burnt the Red Keep in a brief fit of rage, and then stopped. But it's so clear that the producers were given her 'end game' by Martin and lacked the talent and patience to build up to it the way they should have done. 

It's no wonder that after her initial reaction to hearing the bells (which Clarke did very well), they did not show her face again for the entire episode because it was so completely out of character that she wouldn't have been able to portray it: should she have cackled in glee? Screamed in fury for an hour? I cannot see any way she would have been able to sell this ludicrous face heel turn. 

 

 

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"I don't have any love. I have only fear." -- "So, it will be fear!"

Daenerys' psychology is pretty clear. No one loves her, she needs to rule with fear and being Queen was all-important for her the entire show.

She lost almost everything and then victory appears to be hollow and void. She snaps.

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10 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Dany becoming Mad Queen ruins Jorahs story. Every time he saved her, he has allowed a monster to live who would kill millions of innocents.

You can never watch any of his scenes without knowing that he has fundamentally misjudged the character. He offered his sword to Jon saying that he could pass it on to their children; not going to happen. In fact, it’s quite likely going to be that blade Jon uses to murder Daenerys before plonking his backside on the throne.

His whole dramatic sacrifice for her was totally foolish. Dany going mad because a coin landed the wrong way, means you are being told that he should have left her to die. 

This whole Mad Queen plot leaves me with a sick taste in my mouth. It’s totally ruined the series for me. 

Jorah's story was already ruined by leprosy. 

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10 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Dany becoming Mad Queen ruins Jorahs story. Every time he saved her, he has allowed a monster to live who would kill millions of innocents.

I disagree. It's a tragic story, but not ruined.

Another example that is not so consequential. A mother loves her son but he has bad judgement. He falls into a bad crowd and does bad things. Is the mother pathetic for loving her son and trying to remind him of the good things and trying to turn his life around? Is she wasting her time if she knows there is a core of goodness in there that maybe she could reach and turn his life around? No. It may be futile and it's defiitely tragic, but it's not pathetic, which is like comparing Jorah's story as ruined.

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It seemed to me that Jorah was always a kind of a voice of reason to Dany. He loved her, yes, but at the same time he helped keeping her mad side at bay. He gave her an advice even before the battle and she listened. He was her oldest friend, she trusted him almost unconditionally and he was the only one she kinda listened to. Now he's gone, there's no one else to tame her dark side because she doesn't trust no one.

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12 minutes ago, Gertrude said:

I disagree. It's a tragic story, but not ruined.

Right.

3 minutes ago, The Bard of Banefort said:

I found Jorah’s death symbolic. He functioned as Dany’s moral compass for the past eight seasons, and was probably the only person who’s council she still fully respected. Without him, Dany really is on her own.

And that. Very good. 

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No it doesn’t ruin Jorah’s story, how silly. Dany became who she is as a result of Jorah dying as much as anything. When Jorah died the love he had for her went with him.

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As mentioned before, Jorah was her moral compass, however flawed he was himself. When in the past the coin was flipping, he was there to steady her. Then Barristan. Then, however briefly, Tyrion.

 

However... Barristan is dead. Jorah is dead. Tyrion is discredited. The last advisor she trusted - Missandei - is not only dead, but she left a clear last message. "Dracarys".

 

Dany becoming mad queen does not ruin Jorah's arc. It boosts it. It shows what did she become without him.

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I think youre downplaying how much this colours Dany and by extension Jorahs story. 

It is cruel cynicism to suggest that if you care for somebody and love them they’re beyond saving anyway so you might as well stab them. That’s the moral being peddled. Why wouldn’t that love be something that helps Dany overcome her problems once he is gone. Like, for example, “listen to Tyrion about the bells”. 

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I agree. Jorah believed In her, saw all the great things Daeny has done to save the innocent, and honestly his death after the incredible NK battle should have mellowed Daeny our even more to the importance of life.

Before dying Jorah told Daeny to trust Tyrion words, but Daeny just forgot because bells were ringing! Laughably bad story telling.

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Posted (edited)

I think some people have to be blind, because thats always in the background when atrocities happen. 

In S5 Daario said this: "You’re the queen. Everyone’s too afraid of you to speak the truth. Everyone but me.”

I think this fits all 3 advisors, Tyrion, Jorah, and Jon, but I think there are some key differences, and it shakes down like this:

Jorah - only person to witness birth of her dragons. Sort of fuels the sycophancy, "If she can do that, she can do anything!" True believer, loves her politically and romantically. Says he loves her in a vulnerable moment. Looks back at her as he leaves for wight hunt. Bends the knee in public. Gives her honest, good advice. 

Tyrion - witnesses her first dragon flight. Believes in her politically (for some reason that was unexplained). Bends the knee in private as she's giving him a title he covets. POV is accessible; he admits he has treasonous thoughts.

Jon - sees her military potential for the WW. Treats this as a business relationship. Returns her affections only because he can't piss off someone he's trying to convince. Doesnt look back when he leaves for wight hunt. Bends the knee (for some reason that was unexplained) in private only. Only says he loves her when things get scary. POV blocked so we have no idea what his real thoughts are. Doesn't give her real advice anymore, looks loyal to a fault.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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One thing I think that was foreshadowed somewhat was how Dany and her forces felt like foreigners in Westeros.  She complained the Dragons didn't like the cold, many people sided with whack-job Cersei simply because she lived in Westeros her whole life. The Dothraki never seemed at home in Westeros, especially in the north. Grey Worm and Missandei didn't bond with anyone besides each other and Dany. 

I remember in season 7 Missandei was even a little curt towards Ser Davos when he tried to get to know her a little on the steps at Dragonstone.  That was a little telling because who could ever be curt to someone as likable as Ser Davos? She gave Sansa the death stare in the crypts when she overheard her and Tyrion's conversation and that was the point maybe she thought they weren't real allies.  I think she herself didn't care about the Westerosi and she was probably closer to Dany's heart than Jon ever was. I think Missandei's last words were pretty important, and Dany took them to heart.

One thing about Ser Jorah.  I don't think Dany's actions ruined his arc, but they did undermine it somewhat.  He had seen and been a part of political corruption, and of course knew the history of Westeros very well.  One reason he pledged undying loyalty to Dany is he saw her time and time again buck the trend of power hungry tyrants who only care about themselves.  Yes he loved her, but her actions built through seasons 1-5 reinforced his belief in her. When she wins the Unsullied in season 3 after fake selling Drogon that look on his face tells it all.  I don't think we saw anything in Jorah's character that hinted he knew she was capable of this.  Maybe the writers just screwed up but as viewers we need to go with what we see and it wasn't there.  So yes, this heel turn did undermine Jorah.  But it wasn't all for naught as the act of Jorah dying did make Dany much weaker psychologically and maybe prone to some madness, but not this much.

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He did it for love, personal love not cause love. So no.

Besides remember the logic announced, she did it for future generations. Like the needs of the many future outweigh the needs of the few present. haha, she is breaking the wheel 

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Jon will not kill Danny, he will STFU because of their child. Sansa and Tyrion are confined to Casterly Rock where neither is popular and so on.

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11 minutes ago, TwiceBorn said:

Jon will not kill Danny, he will STFU because of their child. Sansa and Tyrion are confined to Casterly Rock where neither is popular and so on.

 

There is no child and if there is the show runners would probably reveal after he runs her through. I guess the sword really was for his children eh?

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20 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

This whole Mad Queen plot leaves me with a sick taste in my mouth. It’s totally ruined the series for me. 

But... it's been obvious it was coming for years (less obvious in the show, granted, but still).

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Just now, Tyrion1991 said:

 

There is no child and if there is the show runners would probably reveal after he runs her through. I guess the sword really was for his children eh?

ROTFL

I think he will run Arya with the pointy end in Dany's defense. Tyrion already justified all of it.

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