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Daemos

This is all Jon’s fault

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Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

 

 

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Posted (edited)

It is Jon's fault just as much as it is society's fault today when a troubled person with mental issues doesn't get the medical help he/she needs and instead goes on a killing spree because of it.

Ultimately it is Daenerys' fault because she did the deed, but you can make a list of factors that contributed to her downward spiral into darkness, and the combination of these factors, all in a short spawn of time, was what finally caused her to snap: 

- Jon's unrequited love, and being rejected for the second time.
- Cersei's cruelty and treachery.
- The loss of 2(3) of her children.
- The loss of her closest friend (Missandei) in a very cruel manner.
- The loss of her oldest friend, adviser and protector (Jorah).
- The open defiance Sansa and several northerners. 
- The ungrateful response by the northerners when she just bled and fought for them.
- The "loss" of loyalty from her advisers.
- The general feeling of betrayal from people she considers to be on her team (Jon, Sansa, Tyrion, Varys)
- Even her destiny and rightful claim was taken away from her with the revelation of Aejon, leading her to question herself.

Jon's unrequited love was simply one in a long list of causes, but ultimately was the very thing that caused her to snap, because it was more or less the last thing she thought she had to loose at that point. After his rejections, she knows she will never rule Westeros as a beloved queen with him by her side, so she reverts to ruling by fear and terror. Basically, as Deadpool would say, "she finally hit 'fuck it'". 

As for why she decided to burn down King's Landing then and there, after they had already surrendered, I'm not so sure.
Maybe that was the plan from the very beginning (she does say something very suspicious about "you know the signal" to Greyworm in valyrian in this very episode), or maybe the bells reminded her of what Tyrion had said over and over, and she considered them to be one final ruse/betrayal from the Lannisters, instead of being what they actually where: a sign of surrender.
Or maybe the writers had no clue on how to make her final decent in to the Queen of the Ashes look believable, so they simply had her attack innocents in a fit of rage and bloodthirst for no apparent reason at all...

Her decent into darkness is really badly portrayed on the show however, and comes across as laughably forced, rushed, contrived and badly written. The turn from her being Mhysa, protector of the downtrodden for 7 seasons, to becoming a tyrant who kills hundreds of thousands of innocents is so sudden and sharp that it's immersion breaking.

When (if) GRRM finishes the books, I'm certain that his portrayal of Daenerys decent will be much better written, paced, nuanced and explained. 

Edited by MinscS2

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Posted (edited)

Nope. It’s the bad story telling. We have many episodes of proof showing Daenys ability to show restraint and compassion for the innocent, to the point she chained her dragon for killing one innocent person. And all that build up thrown away because Jon , a man she’s only known briefly, doesn’t love her? She’s been through much worse, and didn’t go mad. She deserved a better resolution.

Edited by tallTale

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2 minutes ago, tallTale said:

Nope. It’s the bad story telling. We have many episodes of proof showing Daenys ability to show restraint and compassion for the innocent, to the point she chained her dragon for killing one innocent person. And all that build up thrown away because Jon , a man he’s only known briefly, doesn’t love her? She’s been through much worse, and didn’t go mad. She deserved a better resolution.

And there's a ton of proof (listed out in detail in the post above yours) showing how she lost that restraint 

I understand not liking the episode for whatever reason but people claiming this "came out of nowhere" are full of shit

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1 minute ago, azor_ahaiii said:

And there's a ton of proof (listed out in detail in the post above yours) showing how she lost that restraint 

I understand not liking the episode for whatever reason but people claiming this "came out of nowhere" are full of shit

Seven and and a half seasons showing Daeny having hardships and it took two episodes where Jon didn’t love her to push her over the edge. Yeah , I call bullshit on that. 

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Posted (edited)

Jon absolutely has some responsibility in this, but its not because he didn't reciprocate her physical affection.  My goodness, can you imagine if someone said the same thing about a woman rejecting a man's advances because she was uncomfortable with them for any reason?  He has every right to reject her if he wants to. 

His responsibility is for bending the knee if he didn't necessarily have to.  For committing his forces to do whatever her whim was, even if he also thought it unwise.  He let his feelings and his loyalty to her get in the way of seeing what was happening in front of him.  Daenerys choosing to burn the city is on her shoulders alone.  Even when circumstances are awful and lead someone to a very difficult choice, the choice to act it still THEIRS, ultimately. 

So yes, he absolutely has a role in the carnage of KL.  But I think people overblow the weight of him rejecting her physically, one last time.  She was already angry at him, probably seething with rage, for telling Sansa who told Tyrion who told Varys who told... Kissing her back would not have saved KL.  She was already lost.  It was just one more factor on top of a pile of factors. 

Edited by Red Dragon10

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, ummester said:

She's his aunt - rejecting her sexually when he knows this is always the right thing to do.

He told her he loved her as a Queen - to expect more was wrong of her, not him.

The incestuous part of their relationship is irrelevant. We should not judge them based on our morals. In that universe, and in their heritage it is acceptable. Dany is most likely barren also so there is little to no risk of them have children. He clearly loved her and she would die for him. They needed one another to be there for one another so they don’t destroy themselves and others.

 

Dany has paid the price for his betrayal. She is now the Queen of Ashes and will most likely die. Now it is his turn to pay the personal price.

Edited by Daemos

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Just now, Daemos said:

The incestuous part of their relationship is irrelevant. We should not judge them based on our morals. In that universe, and in their heritage it is acceptable. Dany is most likely barren also so there is little to no risk of them have children. He clearly loved her and she would die for him. They needed one another to there for one another so they don’t destroy themselves and others.

We don't need to judge the incestuous - nature does when their kids pop out with 2 heads :)

Besides this, you can love someone and not be able to get a boner for them. Could you imagine being in Jon's head - she's kinda hot, yea but she is my aunt. Yea but she is kind of hot, yea but remember Liza breastfeeding Sweet Robin (what happened to him, by the way?), that's what an aunt is. Jon's penis would be up and down like the Assyrian Empire, trying to reconcile if it had worthy motives to be erect or not. That would fail to temper Dany's desire and only serve to infuriate the Dragon Queen further.

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3 minutes ago, Daemos said:

The incestuous part of their relationship is irrelevant. We should not judge them based on our morals. In that universe, and in their heritage it is acceptable. Dany is most likely barren also so there is little to no risk of them have children. He clearly loved her and she would die for him. They needed one another to there for one another so they don’t destroy themselves and others.

No it's not, you're basically expecting Jon to act like Jaime Lannister, the Kingslayer. Jon has not raised by Targaryens, he has raised by Ned Stark and he has Stark blood in his veins. He is nothing like a Targaryen, he just has a Targaryen blood, that's it. It doesn't mean he needs to do that insest practice which is a disgusting thing for the norherners, it's disgusting for Jon which is why even when he loves her he can't do that, he is the son of Ned Stark and raised as a Stark.

Even Varys said that, if Varys knows that already, it's not acceptable in the North and for the northerners.

Skip to 1.05

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1 hour ago, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

 

 

Jon is just like Ned. Honorable to a fault. This will ultimately lead to him being a terrible ruler. I know the show doesn’t have time for it. But, if this goes as planned, Jon will end up King. Well, does that mean that people stop playing the Game of Thrones? Someone else will step into all the roles that have been killed off. There will be a new Varys, Littlefinger, Cersei, Margaery, Olenna, Oberyn. Jon is ill equipped to survive in that world. They will eat him alive. 

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Just now, King Jon Snow Stark said:

But it’s not common practice with the Starks. 

They already fucked. And he clearly wants to, but is holding back. Why? Because of his code? Fuck that. The world is burning because of his code. Dany would’ve been a great ruler if she had people around her to temper her worst impulses. 

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Posted (edited)

You know, it's Tyrion's fault. He talked Dany out of bringing Dhario with her. If Dany brought Dhario, she'd have someone who loved her and gave her the good loving she needed to not go Fire and Blood.

But then Kings Landing would still be standing, which would shit me, so nah, Tyrion did the right thing.

Edited by ummester

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1 minute ago, Greenmonsterff said:

Jon is just like Ned. Honorable to a fault. This will ultimately lead to him being a terrible ruler. I know the show doesn’t have time for it. But, if this goes as planned, Jon will end up King. Well, does that mean that people stop playing the Game of Thrones? Someone else will step into all the roles that have been killed off. There will be a new Varys, Littlefinger, Cersei, Margaery, Olenna, Oberyn. Jon is ill equipped to survive in that world. They will eat him alive. 

He would have Sansa. If he listen to her and Arya. He would be fine. But Jon is not going to be king. I would keep him in role of Warden (it doesn’t to be the North) or lord commander or just a knight of kings guard.

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2 minutes ago, Daemos said:

They already fucked. And he clearly wants to, but is holding back. Why? Because of his code? Fuck that. The world is burning because of his code. Dany would’ve been a great ruler if she had people around her to temper her worst impulses. 

I agree. Tyrion needed to put them in the room and explain this would united the kingdom. But not one advisor wanted to talk to them about actual solutions that didn’t involve treason. 

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11 minutes ago, Daemos said:

They already fucked. And he clearly wants to, but is holding back. Why? Because of his code? Fuck that. The world is burning because of his code. Dany would’ve been a great ruler if she had people around her to temper her worst impulses. 

Get over the Dany love.  She was abused by her brother, raped by her first husband.  Was fucking her nephew.  Burned whoever opposed her at the time.  She is the epitome of the Mad Targ.  By the way....the dragon's are only her children IN HER MIND.  The equivalent of a crazy cat lady.  If she laid the eggs she would be their 'mother'. Plus, IF she was their mother she did a shitty job of it. One time she had them chained up, She continually exposed them to danger and being human...was never their mother.

Everyone who interacted with her has contributed to her enablement as bat shit crazy.  It was always just a step away.

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