This is all Jon’s fault

[BlackLightning]

10 minutes ago, Green Knight said:

How does him knowing this make it his fault? 

I think @Daemos is trying to say that Jon failed to make a convincing, military sound counterargument to Daenerys' entertainment of her pre-Tyrion modus operandi in Essos. I'm not sure I agree with it but...hey

She did, in fact, turn the tables on the slavers and sack the city of Astapor after the official deal was done. She did resort to guerrilla warfare, infiltration and subversion to take Yunkai and Meereen. In an effort to keep peace in Meereen, she took many different approaches to keep the peace.

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

Jon's fault?! Oh goodness. Listen Jon does not have to return her love or agree to marry/be with/sleep with Daenerys just so she doesn't get her feelings hurt & turn into a raging lunatic. He is allowed to make his own choices about who he wants to be with. It is absolutely absurd to suggest otherwise. 

That being said I think ALL people have a responsibility to do what they can to protect the weak/innocent. To try to avoid catastrophe & keep peace. ALL of them. Not just Jon because he certainly wasn't the only one that thought she may be coming lose at the hinges. A responsiblility - that does not make her actions their fault! Did they shirk their responsibility? Maybe. Numerous people tried to talk to her. The only one that actually did anything to stop her is Varys. But in the others defense look where that got him. I don't know that I can blame them for not wanting to piss off the crazy chic with the dragon. 

I suppose it could be argued Tyrion took action to stop her also by setting Jaime free & insisting he ring the bells.

I honestly don't think any of them believed she would do what she did. I think they believed innocent people may be hurt in the battle & more so if Daenerys started burning shit - which is why they tried to talk to her - but I don't think they thought she would go up & down the streets of KL burning anything that moved. 

At any rate none of them can be blamed for her actions, most certainly not Jon alone. If your friend commits murder & you noticed some strange behavior prior to it & tried talking to them is it then your fault they committed that murder? I know it's not the same exact thing but it's the same idea & the answer is no. 

[Ilissa]

2 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

The HIgh Septon protested against an avuncular marriage: Maegor the Cruel and his niece Rhaena Targaryen.

It is relevant, because it shows the Westeros stance on avuncular marriage before Maegor did it anyway and before Jahaerys and Alysanne forced "exceptionalism" on the realm.

The next avuncular marriage is that of Daemon the Rogue Prince to his niece Rhaenyra, and the realm bled for it, again.

So your claim that no one had an issue with avuncular marriages is a gross lie and unctrovertably wrong.

But no one objected to these marriages just because of their degree of kinship. You have a big problem with reading comprehension.

[sweetsunray]

9 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

But no one objected to these marriages just because of their degree of kinship.

Oh yes, they did. Might have their own scheming motivation behind it, but uncle-niece connection was part of it. Why else did Mushroom write such eloquent tales of Daemon teaching his niece for propaganda?

Well, I'd say you have a big problem with understanding the big picture of how George writes uncle-niece marriages: civil war, turmoil, black page in history, and aside from Rhaenyra's sons by Daemon, no issue or removed from inheriting. In case of Rhaenyra's sons: there weren't any other male targs left.

Regardless of your interpretation of those 4 avuncular marriages in 300 years, point still stands - not normal, not common at all. If you were to say: it happened a few times, I wouldn't disagree. But flouting it as normal and common is just absurd.

[Nightwish]

8 minutes ago, Nami said:

Indeed they all betrayed her in the end. Believe she went mad all you want and that there was an INCREDIBLE build up over 7 seasons (if you force yourself too much to believe that you might poop) but if you stop and think over what happened this season, you'll see that they ALL used and betrayed her. Sandra and Arya. Ungrateful treasonous cunts. Dany SELFLESSLY fought the dead to HELP the north, lost half her army, lost VISERION, and the North betrayed her at the end. Jon stupid motherfucking no-balls ass is just a loser who couldn't put his two brain cells to work and not speak of his parentage to anyone, ever. Dany was right: it took a life of its own and he's not able to control it. He was used by Sandra, the traitor. Everyone was manipulated. By who? The Starks.

The writers turned the forever and ever honorable Starks into awful people, with no honor and loyalty. So I guess Daenerys was not the only one character assassinated.

Can’t agree more with you. She was left alone in the most crucial time and everyone around her wanted to serve his own agenda. This is all of their ruin here for wrecking a character who couldn’t be more straight with them. 

As for the Starks apparently all they learned was how to stab in the back, took it after Lannisters and Littlefinger. How pathetic and petty they become. 

[BlackLightning]

2 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

High Septon may have had his own extra reasons, still doesn't unmake him the pope of the Faith saying "nope, no half-uncle to niece" marriage.

Her own father had a problem with it. That's why he kicked Daemon out to Essos.

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

His own extra reasons? Why not the High Septon's main reason? Why immediately suggest his niece Ceryse after saying "nope, no marriage between Rhaena and Maegor because they are aunt and half-uncle?"

He wanted the piece of the pie for himself and his family. He wanted a female-to-male tie to the Targaryen family, a male who was guaranteed to become a dragonrider. If not the case, why didn't he suggest a nephew or a cousin for Rhaena too...only to get in his feelings when Rhaena is betrothed and married to her brother? 

As for Viserys I, Rhaenyra's father? I think Daemon's exile had more to do with the fact that his daughter and heir was no longer a virgin and was thereby dishonored. Viserys is likely to assume that Daemon took advantage of her like how he took advantage of many women in his past; no good father wants his daughter to just become a notch on another man's belt. Any marriage arrangement in the future will be more difficult (she's still a princess and the heir to the Iron Throne so it wouldn't hurt them that much but still...) because the lucrativeness of it is soiled because Rhaenyra is no longer a virgin. Some men might not care but other men (and their families) might.

Need I also mention that Rhaenyra was also not a legal adult? She wasn't sixteen yet; she is legally still a minor.

Besides, that was just the latest "WTF dude!" moment in a long string of "WTF dude!" moments in Daemon's life. Some of them include:

• abandoning his lady wife from the Vale
• he tried to give a dragon egg to a Flea Bottom prostitute
• he openly disrespected Viserys' wife
• killed the son of the current Sealord of Braavos in a "duel"
• he led an expensive, ill-conceived invasion of the Stepstones which he knew he couldn't rule...which he promptly abandoned because he was bored

That's plenty enough reason to dislike and distrust Daemon. None of which has anything to do with his avuncular marriage to Rhaenyra.

Here's the link to the forum's sister wiki

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daemon_Targaryen

[Hodor's Dragon]

17 minutes ago, Lyanna<3Rhaegar said:

Jon's fault?! Oh goodness. Listen Jon does not have to return her love or agree to marry/be with/sleep with Daenerys just so she doesn't get her feelings hurt & turn into a raging lunatic. He is allowed to make his own choices about who he wants to be with. It is absolutely absurd to suggest otherwise. <snip>

I'm not particularly inclined to blame the outcome on Jon--although I am a bit surprised that he didn't anything like a guilty look on his face at the end. How can you not, in his position, with what happens? Maybe just chalk that one up to Kit Harrington's acting style, which doesn't really run toward expressive. 

However ... what's absurd is to suggest that the King of the North has complete free agency with marrying for love. I mean come on ... Jon Snow isn't the first KOTN in the show. Remember what happened to the 1st one?

[BlackLightning]

11 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Oh yes, they did. Might have their own scheming motivation behind it, but uncle-niece connection was part of it. Why else did Mushroom write such eloquent tales of Daemon teaching his niece for propaganda?

Well, I'd say you have a big problem with understanding the big picture of how George writes uncle-niece marriages: civil war, turmoil, black page in history, and aside from Rhaenyra's sons by Daemon, no issue or removed from inheriting. In case of Rhaenyra's sons: there weren't any other male targs left.

Regardless of your interpretation of those 4 avuncular marriages in 300 years, point still stands - not normal, not common at all. If you were to say: it happened a few times, I wouldn't disagree. But flouting it as normal and common is just absurd.

I don't know because he was commanded to.

Daemon's lessons were meant to display moral deficiencies, social ineptitude and a lack of honor and self-respect in both Daemon and Rhaenyra. None of which is, in and of itself, decried as sinful, abomidable and blasphemous.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you that GRRM is trying to make a point about how uncle-niece/aunt-nephew marriages tend to be sketchy and rife with exploitation and abuse. GRRM is also cleverly planting that seed in Jon Snow's head so that Jon can have that in the back of his mind

But what I am saying is that they are not automatically dismissed by the Westerosi as sinful abominations like sibling/sibling (or worse, parent/child) marriages

[Lyanna<3Rhaegar]

7 minutes ago, Hodor's Dragon said:

I'm not particularly inclined to blame the outcome on Jon--although I am a bit surprised that he didn't anything like a guilty look on his face at the end. How can you not, in his position, with what happens? Maybe just chalk that one up to Kit Harrington's acting style, which doesn't really run toward expressive. 

However ... what's absurd is to suggest that the King of the North has complete free agency with marrying for love. I mean come on ... Jon Snow isn't the first KOTN in the show. Remember what happened to the 1st one?

I agree. I know I would have felt guilty. 

I didn't mean to suggest he has complete free agency to marry for love. I'm only saying Jon not agreeing to marry or be with Daenerys does not make it Jon's fault that she freaked out. Regardless of anything else, her actions cannot be blamed on him just because her upset her so much or whatever. 

[SansaJonRule]

13 hours ago, Daemos said:

They already fucked. And he clearly wants to, but is holding back. Why? Because of his code? Fuck that. The world is burning because of his code. Dany would’ve been a great ruler if she had people around her to temper her worst impulses. 

She did have advisors to check her worst impulses. Tyrion begged her not to destroy KL.

13 hours ago, Pwyll41 said:

She is the epitome of the Mad Targ.

I wouldn't say she is the epitome, but there were certainly warning signs along the way. And if someone is truly mentally unstable (which we always knew was a possibility given her lineage), it is totally believable that things would build up and they suddenly snap.

[Ilissa]

41 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

Well, I'd say you have a big problem with understanding the big picture of how George writes uncle-niece marriages: civil war, turmoil, black page in history, and aside from Rhaenyra's sons by Daemon, no issue or removed from inheriting. In case of Rhaenyra's sons: there weren't any other male targs left.

I do not agree with you, but in any case it does not matter. We are talking about laws and traditions. The laws and traditions of Westeros do not prohibit such marriages.
"Not Asha. In his heart, Aeron had always loved Asha best of all his brother Balon’s children. The Drowned God had blessed her with a warrior’s spirit and the wisdom of a king—but he had cursed her with a woman’s body, too. No woman had ever ruled the Iron Islands. She should never have made a claim. She should have spoken for Victarion, added her own strength to his.

It was not too late, Aeron had decided as he shivered in the sea. If Victarion took Asha for his wife, they could yet rule together, king and queen. In ancient days, each isle had its Salt King and its Rock King. Let the Old Way return."

[BlackLightning]

1 hour ago, SansaJonRule said:

She did have advisors to check her worst impulses. Tyrion begged her not to destroy KL.

I wouldn't say she is the epitome, but there were certainly warning signs along the way. And if someone is truly mentally unstable (which we always knew was a possibility given her lineage), it is totally believable that things would build up and they suddenly snap.

As for the warning signs for Daenerys' mental instability? What lol? Having a temper, being impatient, not appreciating ungratefulness and getting fed up with bulls--- are not a signs of being mentally unstable.

If that's true, then half of all human beings fit the bill for mentally instability. Granted, that's a good argument to make but that's another can of worms.

So what if she did hit the infamous "you know what? f-ck it" button? It doesn't mean she's mentally ill. It just means she got lost her temper and indulged in unnecessary cruelty.

[SansaJonRule]

13 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

If that's true, then half of every human being fits the bill for mentally instability. Granted, that's a good argument to make but that's another can of worms.

Best thing I've read this week!

[The Fattest Leech]

1 hour ago, Ilissa said:

But no one objected to these marriages just because of their degree of kinship. You have a big problem with reading comprehension.

"If you have some huge fire-breathing dragons, you can get people to accept a lot of things that they might otherwise have problems with."-- GRRM regarding the Targaryens being able to do things others don't do in regards to marriages, but not the only time GRRM has spoken about this.

And to drive it in to readers, he added and expanded on it in Fire & Blood, The septon uses 'sister' here, but that is because the example given by the man was about just a sister, not a checklist of every other family member because that would be redundant to read because it is all over each book what incest entails:

...For you to bed your sister would be a grievous sin, ser…but you are not the blood of the dragon, no more than I am. What they do is what they have always done, and it is not for us to judge them.”

Legend tells us that in one small village, the quick-witted Septon Baldrick was confronted by a burly hedge knight, once a Poor Fellow, who said, “Aye, and if I want to fuck my sister too, do I have your leave?” The septon smiled and replied, “Go to Dragonstone and claim a dragon. If you can do that, ser, I will marry you and your sister myself.”

The other parts of the book also show us as readers that this idea that the Targs are super godly humans above all other men is actual BS, so much so that it puts Queen Alysanne in to a depression for a while after losing a daughter.

Yes, it has to do with degree of kinship. The Starks and Karstarks aren't even 'blood' related anymore. Second cousins once removed seem to be the ok line as that adds in a few other bloodlines and those children were (presumably) also not raised in the same household/clan together.

The over-arching theme with the incest is that it controls women because they are nothing but gifts that come with money, lands, etc. The Targaryens (and Tywin) were elitist asses that ended up ruining their dynasties because of if. GRRM has said the norm is to spread the genes/marriages, but they went against what was acceptable because of greed. On the show (and books if Dany ever says anything close to this) if she wants to 'break the wheel of oppression', this is another spoke that needs to be cracked and removed. Women have rights and are not property to have their sexual freedom and 'moon blood' controlled by men.

[The Fattest Leech]

35 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

As for the warning signs for Daenerys' mental instability? What lol? Having a temper, being impatient, not appreciating ungratefulness and getting fed up with bulls--- are not a signs of being mentally unstable.

If that's true, then half of every human being fits the bill for mentally instability. Granted, that's a good argument to make but that's another can of worms.

So what if she did hit the infamous "you know what? f-ck it" button? It doesn't mean she's mentally ill. It just means she got lost her temper and indulged in unnecessary cruelty.

This event will go down in songs and stories as to Dany being "mad". Viewers know all the details, but the common folk in-universe don't. While Targ madness runs the road consisting of anything from just emotionally pissed off, to drinking wildfire, this world doesn't have psychologists as we have them to make proper diagnosis nor prescribe proper counseling or medication.

The bells didn't make Dany go mad, they signaled a change, a decision, and that is what will be sung about for generations to come- for worse and worse- but it will be told as 'madness'.

One of the problems why this fell so damned flat is that the show never introduced the idea of the silver bells in Dothraki culture. THAT would explain a LOT, but no, that's just more in-world lore the show scrapped and is now trying to weedle back in, causing more eyerolls and confusion as a result.

Adding: these are show-only issues as even though something similar to this may happen in the ADOS, it will be handled with much better care, detail, and purpose and won't be a shock for schlock sake. And won't just be "female troubles".

[Areisius]

16 hours ago, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

 

 

I blame Tyrion more but Jon did get one of her dragons killed.

[The Fattest Leech]

36 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

I do not agree with you, but in any case it does not matter. We are talking about laws and traditions. The laws and traditions of Westeros do not prohibit such marriages.
"Not Asha. In his heart, Aeron had always loved Asha best of all his brother Balon’s children. The Drowned God had blessed her with a warrior’s spirit and the wisdom of a king—but he had cursed her with a woman’s body, too. No woman had ever ruled the Iron Islands. She should never have made a claim. She should have spoken for Victarion, added her own strength to his.

It was not too late, Aeron had decided as he shivered in the sea. If Victarion took Asha for his wife, they could yet rule together, king and queen. In ancient days, each isle had its Salt King and its Rock King. Let the Old Way return."

The Greyjoys, especially the one that Martin himself calls "dumb as a stump" is not the one to try and make a rational case out of. Seriously. This is how the lesson is taught to readers. Show, don't tell. Add it to the list of examples that shows how this incest idea is wrong on so many storytelling levels.

[Ilissa]

25 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

"If you have some huge fire-breathing dragons, you can get people to accept a lot of things that they might otherwise have problems with."-- GRRM regarding the Targaryens being able to do things others don't do in regards to marriages, but not the only time GRRM has spoken about this.

It is only about sibling marriages. Do you really not see the difference? Even in my country avunculate marriage is legal. But siblings cannot marry, of course. Avunculate marriage is not a problem for the Middle Ages and for Westeros. 

[Tywin Tytosson]

15 hours ago, azor_ahaiii said:

And there's a ton of proof (listed out in detail in the post above yours) showing how she lost that restraint 

I understand not liking the episode for whatever reason but people claiming this "came out of nowhere" are full of shit

Agree.  Dany's 'descent' did not come out of nowhere.   We can see it all along, as part of who she is.  She was not 'mysha' for 7 seasons.  Only 2, really.  Maybe 3.  She spent most of season 6 with the Dothraki, and when she came back she wanted to burn the cities of of the Masters to ash. These would be (I think) Astapor, Yunkai, and Volantis.  Hundreds of thousands of people.  Tyrion talked her out of that one.  She subsequently abandons Meereen so that she can pursue the Iron Throne.

 

[BlackLightning]

11 minutes ago, The Fattest Leech said:

The Greyjoys, especially the one that Martin himself calls "dumb as a stump" is not the one to try and make a rational case out of. Seriously. This is how the lesson is taught to readers. Show, don't tell. Add it to the list of examples that shows how this incest idea is wrong on so many storytelling levels.

That's not what @Ilissa is saying.

The fact that holier-than-thou Aeron thinks that a marriage between Victarion and Asha is a good idea and makes him think about the old way in a fond way tells us all we need to know.

That somehow an avuncular marriage is a good idea but Asha, as Balon's sole remaining child, taking her rightful place as Balon's heir is a bad one? Despite the fact that she has proven herself? That would suggest that avuncular marriage doesn't bother someone of Aeron's ilk.

Also, keep in mind that Aeron also has the political wherewithal to mentally finger-wag and question Asha for not seeing the obvious thing he is seeing: that a marriage makes sense because it solves all dynastic claims, preserves a strong bloodline and paves the way for strong, capable children.

Regardless of whether she wants it or not, it's the wisest and easiest political solution. Asha only resists what she recognizes as a good idea because she doesn't want to get married, sit around, get pregnant, push out multiple babies and play third-fiddle to her uncle.

Daenerys doesn't have that issue, in the show or the books.