This is all Jon’s fault

[Mladen]

1 hour ago, Pacala said:

All those people hid in their houses when apocalypse came. It`s hard to belive all those peoples didn`t know about The Great War and great doom who came to wipe them out, even this is medieval time in Westeros. Remember The faith of the seven, Lord of light, Azor Ahai, Many face God, The Old gods, etc. Instead of cheering her for saving their lives, they hide from her.

They did no action against dictators. They where hypocrite, they rebel against Mad King but stood and watch others dictators.

In life either you fight or die. You can`t stand and watch.

Seven hells... She kills so many people that we need 6 figures to count them and people are blamed for not believing a myth old 8000 years? Really?

[darmody]

22 minutes ago, Risto said:

I don't blame him for not being able to control Unsullied or Dothraki. I blame him for not being able to control Northerners.

We saw him restraining Northerners. Not all of them, obviously, but I didn't get much of an idea how much control had been loist. 

[Little Bird of the North]

I'm not a fan of the idea that someone should be forcefully tied to another individual just because the latter individual might possibly have some kind of relapse/breakdown. Yes, mentally ill people deserve attention and treatment, but no other person's agency should be taken away just to dedicate their entire life to that person. This kind of blaming is toxic and unhealthy. Jon is an idiot in the show, but not because of this. 

[Ilissa]

4 hours ago, sweetsunray said:

You are citing the Ironborn.... a culture who doesn't follow Old Gods nor Faith. Do Northerners and those of the Faith in Westeros take salt wives and thralls? No, they don't. 

You didn’t give any proof that avunculate marriage was banned in Westeros. 

[Pacala]

28 minutes ago, Risto said:

Seven hells... She kills so many people that we need 6 figures to count them and people are blamed for not believing a myth old 8000 years? Really?

The entire belief system was based on apocalypse. In medieval times peoples feared god more then king, same in Westeros. It`s impossible to say they didn`t hear or believe on Long Night, Night King, etc when all religious system was based on same idea. The entire core beliefs, life was based on the general motif of a Hero who will come and saved them, on that prophecy (Azor Ahai). 99% of Westeros population heard about the fight between forces of living vs forces of evil, from the frozen north or Westeros to the unknown land of Essos, they all knew.

"They held each other close and turned their backs upon the end.
The hills that split asunder and the black that ate the skies;
The flames that shot so high and hot that even dragons burned;
Would never be the final sights that fell upon their eyes.
A fly upon a wall, the waves the sea wind whipped and churned —
The city of a thousand years, and all that men had learned;
The Doom consumed it all alike, and neither of them turned"

[Mladen]

2 minutes ago, Pacala said:

The entire belief system was based on apocalypse. In medieval times peoples feared god more then king, same in Westeros. It`s impossible to say they didn`t hear or believe on Long Night, Night King, etc when all religious system was based on same idea. The entire core beliefs, life was based on the general motif of a Hero who will come and saved them, on that prophecy (Azor Ahai). 99% of Westeros population heard about the fight between forces of living vs forces of evil, from the frozen north or Westeros to the unknown land of Essos, they all knew.

We don't exactly know what the Faith preaches and whether they have had some sort of apocalyptic event. Even on North, people have hard time believing in something like that. Overall, belief is one... Seeing it in reality another.

[Pacala]

11 minutes ago, Risto said:

We don't exactly know what the Faith preaches and whether they have had some sort of apocalyptic event. Even on North, people have hard time believing in something like that. Overall, belief is one... Seeing it in reality another.

I have no doubt if in case of an Armageddon the entire population will know. Dosen`t matter stone age, dark age or modern times. That was a huge event on Westeros, only D&D made him without importance. They all spoke about same event - Long night, on different continents. When you hear it`s going to happen again you will know. That news will travel faster then speed of light.

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

5 hours ago, Pandean said:

Haven't read the entire thread so sorry if this has been said/the topic has completely changed:

I don't think Jon necessarily had to get down and dirty with Dany to show her he loved her so she would feel loved and suddenly that would make her not burn everything and choose fear. I don't think this is anyone's fault but Dany's. She made the decision to burn King's Landing. It was her decision, no matter the outside forces that may have swayed her one way or another. She always had the choice there and even if she was in a crappy situation in many ways, she still had the choice.

 

BUT I do think Jon really could've at least done more to help Dany out in that time. Like. Dude. USE YOUR WORDS. Don't just reject her when she's in her lowest. Like, can't you just say "Hey Dany, I'm having an identity crisis right now and also you're my aunt and I wasn't raised with the idea that incest is okay" or something? God forbid you have a heart-to-heart talk or something you emotionally constipated brooding potato. 

You should understand how she feels alone and lost her friends and is surrounded by enemies. You were killed by your own brothers once! Seriously.

So I don't think this isn't Jon's fault but if he had more than the emotional range that god gave a piece of cardboard, he'd probably do a lot better.

I agree. I don't agree that jon is a bad battle commander - he was ruled by his emotions trying to save rickon, his tactics were sound.  I don't blame him for not wanting a sexual relationship with his aunt - but what really pisses me off - whether it is jon or most probably the writing - is that he said nothing to the woman he SUPPOSEDLY loves, no explanation as you say/ FFS IT IS SO FRUSTRATING 'You are my aunt, I need time to process this, etc, where are we going.

But people talk to him - he says nothing. Tyrion ' When you hear the bells, call you forces off' He just glares - what - more emotional impact. RUBBISH. I felt he was thinking ' My boys have been fucked over by the lannisters, etc - they are gonna get some, etc)

BUT HE JUST GLARES - THIS IS JON SNOW FFS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Kajjo]

23 hours ago, Daemos said:

is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge

Yes, not reciprocating her affections is one building block of her "going over the edge". But not the only one. But yes, it was the last one, the decisive on: Alright then, let it be fear. 

This moment she made her decision to go berserk.

 

 

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

no TLC nothing - he put a wall up and that was that. Lots of contributing factors led to this and it was the last straw, but knowing all she had lost there was no affection, no cuddle. I guess he 'dumped' her then and she knew she had to rule by fear or at least create fear by her actions.

REALLY SAD and a shit way to end it all

[Sir Hedge of Hog]

2 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

+1

And the taste is that of je-m'en-foutisme (=don't-give-a-damn attitude) and incompetence.

yep I am full of disillusionment and apathy...I wanted a jon/dany baby thing which we all we led too. Show watchers like myself couldn't believe it all. such a waste

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Ilissa said:

You didn’t give any proof that avunculate marriage was banned in Westeros. 

I actually cited a religious head of the Faith protesting against such a marriage. It can be argued that this High Septon wanted his own kin to be Maegor's wife, but that is besides the point. If Maegor had wanted to marry say a Lannister, that High Septon could not "protest", no matter how much he wanted his kin to benefit. The head of a religion, the equivalent of a pope, cannot protest against a marriage or match without there being a religious precedent for it, without knowing that his septons and the followers of that religion would rise up in protest as well.

And it is up to you to prove your assertion that it is common on mainland westeros and the North. I gave more precise information than you have done so far, about those marriages, and compared them to the timespan. In all the lineages of all Westeros we have 4 such marriages, all politically problematic, and half of those are by Targs.

Furthermore, I did not exactly claim it was "banned", so that's a straw man argument of yours. I simply disagree with your claim that it is "normal" or "common", and instead put forward that the evidence we have clearly makes it a "rare" event and "problematic" in the North and the Faith regions. Targs can rely on 'exceptionalism', but even amongst Targs such marriages are problematic, whereas sibling marriages are not. 

[sweetsunray]

2 hours ago, Little Bird of the North said:

I'm not a fan of the idea that someone should be forcefully tied to another individual just because the latter individual might possibly have some kind of relapse/breakdown. Yes, mentally ill people deserve attention and treatment, but no other person's agency should be taken away just to dedicate their entire life to that person. This kind of blaming is toxic and unhealthy. Jon is an idiot in the show, but not because of this. 

Agreed.

[sweetsunray]

9 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings.

You didn't. Just used the opportunity to make clear I'm not a native speaker, but trying to expand my vocabulary, and I guess other readers will determine with this knowledge upon whom my spelling mistakes reflect the worst.

9 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

His own extra reasons? Why not the High Septon's main reason? Why immediately suggest his niece Ceryse after saying "nope, no marriage between Rhaena and Maegor because they are aunt and half-uncle?"

Could the High Septon as a head of a religion "protest" against Visenya proposing a match between Maegor and say a Lannister? No, he could not.

It therefore does not really matter whether he had ulterior motives or not for us to determine whether a marriage between uncle-niece is acceptable to the Faith. What does matter is that the High Septon has religion (the septons and its followers - houses and smallfolk) on his side to protest and then propose Ceryse.

9 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

As for Viserys I, Rhaenyra's father? I think Daemon's exile had more to do with the fact that his daughter and heir was no longer a virgin and was thereby dishonored. Viserys is likely to assume that Daemon took advantage of her like how he took advantage of many women in his past; no good father wants his daughter to just become a notch on another man's belt. Any marriage arrangement in the future will be more difficult (she's still a princess and the heir to the Iron Throne so it wouldn't hurt them that much but still...) because the lucrativeness of it is soiled because Rhaenyra is no longer a virgin. Some men might not care but other men (and their families) might.

Viserys was angry with Daemon too when he married Rhaenyra later without Viserys' consent. By then she was already a mother of three and widowed, and he himself twice widowed. 

9 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Need I also mention that Rhaenyra was also not a legal adult? She wasn't sixteen yet; she is legally still a minor.

And yet there is also the adage that a flowered woman is a woman grown.

Beyond that, I do not disagree that Daemon is a shady character, which points to the the main reason why even Targs imo are not eager to see their potential daughter-heir wed to their brother or half-brother, when they obviously have no issue wedding their daughters to sons - it is because they regard it as a power-grab to get the Iron Throne, and their hunger for power as motivation to keep them from becoming king after them. Neither Aenys I nor Viserys I regarded this as a conciliating solution.

 

9 hours ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Daemon_Targaryen

Thank you. I read Fire & Blood and the shortened story too.

I noticed you argumented over Alys Karstark as well.

In actuality, Cregan is a cousin, yet Alys Karstark stresses the fact she calls Cregan "uncle". Her grandfather and castellan Arnolf Karstark were brothers. Her father was Arnolf's nephew. Arnolf's son technically isn't her uncle, which she admits to Jon, but then repeats they all (she and her siblings) still called him uncle.

"—Jon Snow." The girl tossed her braid back. "My house and yours are bound in blood and honor. Hear me, kinsman. My uncle Cregan is hard upon my trail. You must not let him take me back to Karhold." [...] "You're still a little sullen," the girl said, "but I will forgive you that if you will save me from my uncle."

"Your uncle … would that be Lord Arnolf?"

"He is no lord," Alys said scornfully. "My brother Harry is the rightful lord, and by law I am his heir. A daughter comes before an uncle. Uncle Arnolf is only castellan. He's my great-uncle, actually, my father's uncle. Cregan is his son. I suppose that makes him a cousin, but we always called him uncle. Now they mean to make me call him husband." She made a fist (aDwD, Jon IX)

 

She could have simply cited that Arnolf and Cregan intended to usurp her brother (which they do and which she does mention), but she specifically used the word uncle here, to express her revulsion against the idea and to stoke Jon's own expected revulsion against it, as well as gain his sympathy. For Alys it's enough argument that she looks upon Cregan as her uncle to gain an argument with Jon to help save her from the marriage. 

[Red Dragon10]

9 hours ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

No, Jon does not.  Jon did not make the decision to firebomb KL.  Dany did.  Dany's decision.   Dany's responsibility.

Dany does have potential 'extenuating circumstances', but she decided to follow a course of action that could very well end up killing as many people as the Night King did.

The rest of my post says exactly that...if you read it.  The full responsibility for burning KL is on Daenerys' shoulders alone.  But there were other things that Jon contributed to, that HE has responsibility for.  His men were raping and pillaging - that's on him.  HE took his men down there.  HE supported Daenerys and ignored signs of what she would do to take "her power".  He absolutely does have some responsibility as a leader and as someone who supported Daenerys unconditionally.  But the burning of KL is not on him.  And he certainly had no responsibility to return Daenerys' physical affection, as the OP suggests. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

Jon and Dany actually having a heart to heart moment isnt going to happen after Dany just did something utterly terrifying and blamed Sansa for her own actions. In fact, Jon has never had a heart to heart with Dany because he never tells her how he really feels or talks about his own life with her. The conversations they do have, he's giving her titles, she's talking about her throne or her dragons. Its so impersonal. On rewatch people will see how they directed Kit to look uncomfortable with Dany the entire time, because they knew this was coming and its important to show that he's only around her out of necessity and fear. He's Sansa with Joffrey, "I am loyal to my beloved Dany." Calling this a "tragic romance"  is such a misnomer. Its toxic in many ways and I cant wait for this ridiculously incompatibile "relationship" to end.

[Rose of Red Lake]

9 hours ago, Bear Claw said:

I think Jon and the Northern forces will get the blame for supporting her and fighting for her, even if they didn't know she was going to go ballistic.  Northern troops were taking part in the war crimes, so yes, he gets some blame. Also, let's not forget that the wight hunt is what allowed the NK to gain access into Westeros, so he had a hand in that as well. I don't see how Jon comes out of this mess with anyone's respect. I see him being given the same option that LF gave to Ned right when King Robert was dying. LF told Ned to take control, but honorable Ned wouldn't do it, and here, Varys gave Jon the option to take control, but honorable Jon wouldn't do it. ETA: Jon seems to be making all of the wrong choices.

Sadly, I agree. 

Jon being no smarter than Ned or Robb is so very dumb. We've already seen "honorable Stark shooting himself in the foot (and losing his head) for being too honorable" TWICE now. Do we really need a third?

How is that interesting?

If the books are the same ... what was Grrm thinking?

[Arakan]

On 5/14/2019 at 12:26 PM, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

 

 

So Hitler was breaking bad because his Daddy didn’t love him enough (actually historians agree Hitler had a shit childhood). What about taking fucking responsibility for ones deeds? 

No, Jon is not to blame for Dany‘s genocidal rampage. So he didn’t love Dany enough and so it’s all his fault. Tough luck. Happens to all of us at one point in live. Deal with it. 

Wow, just wow. 

[Rose of Red Lake]

16 hours ago, Bael's Bastard said:

No need to respond to a crazy claim with another crazy claim. She committed an atrocious mass murder of tens or hundreds of thousands of innocent smallfolk. No indication she set about wiping out an entire race or people.

Yeah I would use, mass murder/war crime.

But I dont want to speak to soon. Lets see what she does next! 

[Nowy Tends]

12 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

But I dont want to speak to soon. Lets see what she does next! 

I hope she grills Sansa's ass.