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Daemos

This is all Jon’s fault

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2 minutes ago, Theda Baratheon said:

I’m in agreement with you on the rest but not your first point. We are talking about Jon in the show, this ending no matter how rushed simplistic and unearned is the only ending we are likely ever getting and so yes, I AM furious with Jon. He enabled her and followed her. He was weak willed, spineless & useless. I’ll judge him on what we’ve seen, regardless of D&D being idiots. 

Lol, I get it but D&D made him do it... :lmao::devil:

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Posted (edited)
1 minute ago, Green Knight said:

Lol, I get it but D&D made him do it... :lmao::devil:

And so I hate him in the show. 

Edit: no I don’t I’m just so furious and disappointed with him 

Edited by Theda Baratheon

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Just now, Theda Baratheon said:

And so I hate him in the show. 

I’m having a little fun with you but honestly I pretty much agree with you. I like Jon, but he’s acting like P-whipped high school boy with no balls carrying his first girlfriends books while following her along the hallways a half step behind. 

It infuriated me when he renounced his title and basically pledged the north to her. I can only imagine how that would have played out with the Northern lords who made him king if this was a real story. Had I been one I would have flipped a gasket. 

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Posted (edited)
6 hours ago, Ilissa said:

This is contrary to the books. According to the books, in Westeros uncle / nephew and aunt / nephew marriages are normal.

No they're not. There are 3 4 known avuncular marriages in Westeros history for the past 300 years. 2 by Stark brothers grabbing power by marrying their nieces (the heirs), even skipping the 4 half-sisters ahead of them. None of them live long. Their children nor their descendants are ever recognized as part of the inheritance line ever after. The 3rd avuncular marriage was with Maegor the Cruel, second son of Aegon the Conquerer. When the marriage was first proposed, the high septon protested against it, and it wasn't pursued. Then Maegor's brother, the king, married his daughter (Maegor's niece) to her brother, and the Faith and smallfolk rose up in rebellion. Maegor usurped his nephew, had him killed and then forced his niece to be his wife (and she was called the Black bride for it). Maegor never had an heir. The 4th was a Targ marriage between Daemon the Rogue Prince (the uncle) and his niece Rhaenyra Targaryen. This happened against her father's will, despite exceptionalism, and it was one of the reasons why her half-brothers were against her becoming the queen. They didn't want Daemon as her king-consort. And it all led to a civil war between Targs, killed off almost all dragons, and the country bled for it.

Those are your "normal" examples... black pages in history.

Edited by sweetsunray

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9 minutes ago, darmody said:

Not that he's doing math in his head. He probably just has a visceral reaction. But remember, Sansa was raised to be paired off politically. Jon spent his whole life repressing sexual desire, and only ever had sex with one girl before Danny. And that was when giving in to her would help save his life while he was in the enemy camp pretending to be a traitor. 

He turned down Melisandre because of his vows, yes, but also because he was still in love. Finally, he gets intimate with Danny, then discovers she's his aunt. And what is it, like a week later? I can see why he'd be hesitant. 

But highborn are not outside the spectrum of morality in Westeros. That only ever applied to Targaryens. Plus, Jon was raised discussing/around the mores of noblemen. If the wiki is accurate, and Starks married half-uncles before, then it is certainly questionable whether third degree consanguinity is considered an abomination in the North that lies before the Wall.

The personal aspects you cite do make sense, however. And I don't know how into genetics these people are that Jon would be doing so much math regarding blood affinity, - especially since Dany does not appear to be able to bear children.

However, since the show and the books pertain to related but different realities, it seems that show runners have taken a different stance than Martin. Within the context of the books, it's very possible Daenerys/Jon wouldn't be frowned upon not only because they're Targaryens but because the laws of consanguinity are not as strict. They seem to encompass only first degree and second degree, which is to say no parent/offspring and no brothers and sisters.

About the topic: Daenerys was at a low, vulnerable place, but that doesn't make Jon responsible for meeting her sexual demands. He offered what he could, but she seemed to want sex specifically. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

No they're not. There are 3 known avuncular marriages in Westeros history for the past 300 years. 2 by Stark brothers grabbing power by marrying their nieces (the heirs), even skipping the 4 half-sisters ahead of them. None of them live long. Their children nor their descendants are ever recognized as part of the inheritance line ever after. The 3 avuncular marriage was with Maegor the Cruel, second son of Aegon the Conquerer. When the marriage was first proposed, the high septon protested against it, and it wasn't pursued. Then Maegor's brother, the king, married his daughter (Maegor's niece) to her brother, and the Faith and smallfolk rose up in rebellion. Maegor usurped his nephew, had him killed and then forced his niece to be his wife (and she was called the Black bride for it). Maegor never had an heir.

Those are your "normal" examples... black pages in history. 

Yes, High Septon protested against siblings marriage. But no one had problems with avuncular marriages. Your examples are irrelevant.

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You know how we had a debate about Jon being terrible commander during Battle of the Bastards.

Then we had a debate about him being terrible tactician in Long Night.

I really can't believe that anyone sane would ever claim Jon was a good commander AFTER this episode.

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

Yes, High Septon protested against siblings marriage. But no one had problems with avuncular marriages. Your examples are irrelevant.

The HIgh Septon protested against an avuncular marriage: Maegor the Cruel and his niece Rhaena Targaryen.

It is relevant, because it shows the Westeros stance on avuncular marriage before Maegor did it anyway and before Jahaerys and Alysanne forced "exceptionalism" on the realm.

The next avuncular marriage is that of Daemon the Rogue Prince to his niece Rhaenyra, and the realm bled for it, again.

So your claim that no one had an issue with avuncular marriages is a gross lie and unctrovertably wrong.

Edited by sweetsunray

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@ sweetsunray: hey, thanks for the more specific take on the matter. It seems avuncular marriages are a level too close within Westeros, then. In that case, Jon's stance does make much more sense. 

 

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Posted (edited)
15 minutes ago, elle_by_the_sea said:

@ sweetsunray: hey, thanks for the more specific take on the matter. It seems avuncular marriages are a level too close within Westeros, then. In that case, Jon's stance does make much more sense.

You're welcome.

I get it. People check the "incest in Westeros" wiki, come across those Stark marriages, with one having 4 kids.

But most people don't check up on the actual full Stark lineage tree we have there, nor how low in the inheritance line those brothers really were, and how many were lords of WF in a short time, some even without ever marrying and having children at all (might have been boys). The nieces father (the heir of Lord Cregan Stark as eldest son of the 1st wife) died in Dorne fighting for King Daeron 1. It is mentioned that this was followed by a period of turmoil for his half-brothers after him. And we know one of the brothers (unmarried) who became Lord of WF died against Skagosi rebelling. But when you check in the family tree what happened to the lineage of the avuncular marriage, you notice they definitely got sidelined. Combine it with Robb's talk about his will with Cat and heirs, and he doesn't consider an Umber or Cerwyn as potential heir whatsoever. Not even Cat does, despite her referring to some far cousin in the Vale. We don't know the specifics, but 3 out of 4 brothers being Lord of WF doesn't sound like that went smooth at all. And it looks those 2 uncles took a page out of Targ practice and thought to do the same, despite the Dance of Dragons civil war that preceded their actions by a generation. And it got them turmoil and death. Wouldn't be surprised if the twin sons of Serena Stark got killed as kids.

We don't have the story, but if and when George will write it (either in a Dunk & Egg tale or in the series when it's appropriate), it won't be good.

Edited by sweetsunray

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56 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

And some were taken on the other side of the Wall.

What? Do you really think that the spearwife who hates Theon, who repeatedly calls Eddard Stark her Lord (odd for a kneeler) and who refers to Bran and Rickon with an air of affection that would be uncommon to a Free Folk woman who doesn't know Bran and Rickon from two sticks in the mud was born on the north side of the Wall?

The heads of Houses Flint and Norrey didn't attend Alys Karstark's wedding because they were in a celebratory mood. They attended the wedding to bring their grievances and concerns about wildlings south of the Wall to Jon's attention. They were not happy about the marriage, they weren't happy about wildlings manning the castles and they were very unhappy about wildling families settling in the Gift.

Textual evidence? A Storm of Swords, chapters 15 and 26

 

Alys's wedding didn't take place until ADWD. They are wary of Jon's plans but they don't put up much of a fight about it, either. 

And yes, some were taken on the other side of the Wall. The current Starks may well be descended from Bael the Bard. You think northeners didn't rape wildling women? Of course they did. 

The free folk know what incest does and it is an abomination. Several other characters make comments about incest, too. Just because they put up with it from the Targs doesn't mean it's condoned.  The Faith Militant rebelled when Aenys married his daughter Rhaena and son Aegon to each other. 

Robert would not have been condemned for killing Cersei and Jaime. I would hope he'd spare the children, but he probably wouldn't. And he wouldn't have been condemned for that either.

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First, I thought Episode 5 was great. My criticisms are minor. Regarding Dany's actions being Jon's fault I don't think so. She acted based on what was needed to win the war. She knew how to fly her dragon to avoid the scorpions. She flew out the sun, flew among the ships and kept the gunners having to constantly shift their aim with slow, clumsy weapons. Those are not the actions of a mad person. She did a lot of damage to innocent people but it was Cersai who put the small folk out to be human shields. That bluff had to be called or Kings Landing would never have been taken. She called the same bluff with Randall Tarly. Yes, she could have stopped the destruction sooner but there is now no doubt in the Seven Kingdoms about the power of a dragon. 

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51 minutes ago, sweetsunray said:

It isn't common: half-avuncular marriages were done one time with the Starks in the past 300 years, and it was a power grab by sons of a third wife trying to get the inheritance of their nieces. The period is engulfed in turmoil, as of the 4 brothers of the 3rd wife, 3 were Lord of WF, with one of them dying before he could inherit from the eldest brother. And NOT 1 child of those unions is recognized as a Stark heir. Not 1 descendant of that line is recognized as a Stark heir. The sole brother of those 4 whose kids got be Lord of WF was the one who was married to a Karstark (not Stark anymore, too long ago and too far removed to be considered by Robb for his will). Beyond that you have only 1 first cousin marriage. That's it.

300 years of ancestry, and you have 2 simultaneous happening avuncular marriages, and 2 cousin marriages, but 1 of those cousins is as far a cousin from the Lord of WF as a Karstark is.

The showrunners don't forget their show's continuity. They never even mentioned the avuncular marriages of a century ago. Why? Because those kids and those lords were either killed for it or taken out of the Stark inheritance line.

I was going to mention this and add that those uncles were only half uncles, not full uncles. There would be slightly more genetic variation.

As an aside, even marriages between first cousins can produce children that are not healthy. Charles Darwin himself married his first cousin and was convinced that his children's abnormalities were the result of a lack of variation in the family tree. He didn't know about genes, but the closer the relationship, the greater the chance of ASDs and inbreeding depression. 

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Dany's actions are Dany's fault. No one else's. She has her own mind, her own agency, her own way of doing things. Saying Jon should have screwed her to keep her sweet ... now that would be atrocious writing and atrocious behaviour.

All along, Dany has categorically stated she was going to burn down cities and smash stone castles etc. She reiterated it to the Dothraki a few seasons ago. Now she's doing exactly what she said she'd do. Then she allowed her men to Sack KL once they had their victory - as happened after most medieval battles (and non-medieval ones, quite frankly: look at what the Russians did in Berlin). How people can say this has come out of nowhere is beyond me. 

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Rewatched the episode, Dany is not mad, she took a strategic albeit merciless decision; a necessary evil she had to do to win the game absolutely and establish the new order from the ashes of old.

People will likely see her as ‘mad’ because of her father but I don’t think she was insane. Just cruel and pissed. 

Jon is at fault because he knew that her choices were limited in the context of her ultimate ambition. She made that much clear to him.

 

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6 minutes ago, Daemos said:

Rewatched the episode, Dany is not mad, she took a strategic albeit merciless decision; a necessary evil she had to do to win the game absolutely and establish the new order from the ashes of old.

People will likely see her as ‘mad’ because of her father but I don’t think she was insane. Just cruel and pissed. 

Jon is at fault because he knew that her choices were limited in the context of her ultimate ambition. She made that much clear to him.

 

How does him knowing this make it his fault? 

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Posted (edited)

He could’ve BEEN THE LIGHT IN HER DARKEST HOUR!!!! and trusted her to keep the secret. The one his QUEEN BEGGED HIM to keep hidden because she KNOWS better than him. Don’t underestimate the power of LOVE!

Edited by Daemos

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, sweetsunray said:

The HIgh Septon protested against an avuncular marriage: Maegor the Cruel and his niece Rhaena Targaryen.

It is relevant, because it shows the Westeros stance on avuncular marriage before Maegor did it anyway and before Jahaerys and Alysanne forced "exceptionalism" on the realm.

The next avuncular marriage is that of Daemon the Rogue Prince to his niece Rhaenyra, and the realm bled for it, again.

So your claim that no one had an issue with avuncular marriages is a gross lie and unctrovertably wrong.

Don't be silly...and maybe you shouldn't use big words you can't spell lol

The High Septon didn't protest against that avuncular marriage because it was an avuncular marriage and therefore sinful. He protested against that avuncular marriage because he wanted his niece to marry a Targaryen prince.

AKA his reasons were political

He made an immediate counteroffer to Visenya's plan that just so happened to revolve around his niece. That High Septon was also unusual in the fact that he was very loud/outspoken, very controlling and very politically involved.

The only people who had a problem with Daemon and Rhaenyra's marriage are the people who had a deeply personal problem with Daemon. Most of them were the leaders of the Greens (Alicent and Otto Hightower, Criston Cole, etc.) who fought to disinherit Rhaenyra; one of them (Viserys) had a long history of not trusting his brother Daemon with said distrust being proven time after time.

No one else had a problem with it. Why would they fight for her (and, by default, Daemon) if they did have a problem with it?

Edited by Jabar of House Titan

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Posted (edited)
12 hours ago, Nightwish said:

Not Just John. Tyrion, Varys, Sansa...they all played their role in creating an unstable world around her, a world she couldn't trust, making arrangements even at the last hour convenient to them, being wrong from their beginning, serving only their own agenda. Hope she takes them all down with her.  

Indeed they all betrayed her in the end. Believe she went mad all you want and that there was an INCREDIBLE build up over 7 seasons (if you force yourself too much to believe that you might poop) but if you stop and think over what happened this season, you'll see that they ALL used and betrayed her. Sandra and Arya. Ungrateful treasonous cunts. Dany SELFLESSLY fought the dead to HELP the north, lost half her army, lost VISERION, saved their Warden who stupidly went beyond The Wall to "fetch" a wight, and the North betrayed her at the end. Jon stupid motherfucking no-balls ass is just a loser who couldn't put his two brain cells to work and not speak of his parentage to anyone, ever. Dany was right: it took a life of its own and he's not able to control it. He was used by Sandra, the traitor. Everyone was manipulated. By who? The Starks.

The writers turned the forever and ever honorable Starks into awful people, with no honor and loyalty. So I guess Daenerys was not the only one character assassinated.

Edited by Nami

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Don't be silly...and maybe you shouldn't use big words you can't spell lol

Maybe I'm not a native speaker. Classy Jabar! Real classy! You could at the very least extend a helping hand and show me the correct spelling of incontrovertible

Quote

The High Septon didn't protest against that avuncular marriage because it was an avuncular marriage and therefore sinful. He protested against that avuncular marriage because he wanted his niece to marry a Targaryen prince.

High Septon may have had his own extra reasons, still doesn't unmake him the pope of the Faith saying "nope, no half-uncle to niece" marriage.

Quote

The only people who had a problem with Daemon and Rhaenyra's marriage are the people who had a deeply personal problem with Daemon. Most of them were the leaders of the Greens (Alicent and Otto Hightower, Criston Cole, etc.) who fought to disinherit Rhaenyra; one of them (Viserys) had a long history of not trusting his brother Daemon with said distrust being proven time after time.

Her own father had a problem with it. That's why he kicked Daemon out to Essos.

 

Edited by sweetsunray

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