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This is all Jon’s fault

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3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Daenerys has clearly care for more than just the Iron Throne. She cared for Jorah, Missandei, the slaves she set free, Viserys, Drogo, her baby, the Lhazareen women she saved, Daario, Irri, Doreah, Barristan, Meereen, etc.

D&D are already trying to retcon huge swathes of their show, we don't need you doing it too.

And I don't see anything wrong with Daenerys caring about the Iron Throne.

Daenerys is just as entitled to the Iron Throne as the Starks are entitled to Winterfell.

  • It was created by their families
  • It has been the property of their families longer than it has been the property of her enemies
  • It has been the power base and crown jewel for their families longer than it has been the power base of their enemies
  • Both families didn't lost their properties in a bad business deal or due to natural occurrence of disease; they didn't abandon it. It was taken from them and it wasn't even taken fairly in war. They lost it due to treachery, ill-thought schemes and terrible decisions made by flawed people that had huge, unforeseen consequences

No one had a problem with Sansa or Jon demanding that Winterfell be returned by House Stark or else. Why should we have a problem with Daenerys demanding the Iron Throne be reclaimed by House Targaryen or else?

well she isnt even the true heir now and she knows it yet she demands someone bend the knee to her, and he says OK yet he also needs to lie for her too. Do this for me, do that for me....

 

She's also been very bad with people that show they do not agree with her. She's an awful leader and quite frankly she expects love from people who rightfully mistrust her. In essos she sort of saved some slaves...she's a hero to them perhaps...in westeros the nobles are aloof to the commoners and do not enslave them...they just want a just ruler. She comes to westeros with the worlds biggest rapists and poachers....a cold blooded army in unsullied...what did she expect?

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4 hours ago, Risto said:

You know how we had a debate about Jon being terrible commander during Battle of the Bastards.

Then we had a debate about him being terrible tactician in Long Night.

I really can't believe that anyone sane would ever claim Jon was a good commander AFTER this episode.

Battle of the Bastards ought to have demonstrated for all time that he's a Battle Idiot. But he didn't do perform badly here. All he had to do was march up a street, admittedly. But he is shown being able to restrain most of his men when Greyworm and Danny go nuts. There isn't much Jon can do about the Unsullied, Dothraki, and Drogo rampaging, because he doesn't have formal authority over them. 

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9 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

 

No one had a problem with Sansa or Jon demanding that Winterfell be returned by House Stark or else. Why should we have a problem with Daenerys demanding the Iron Throne be reclaimed by House Targaryen or else?

In that case, she would be demanding Jon be placed on the throne. 

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8 minutes ago, darmody said:

In that case, she would be demanding Jon be placed on the throne. 

Just like Sansa demanded that Rickon's safety as the rightful Lord of Winterfell was paramount.

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8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Welp, this topic surely exploded while I was off to work. 

I hear you there.  ;)

8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

We will probably never know for sure. Daenerys at the time had no clue what potential marriage she might have been up for. 

She does treat him as an equal during the majority of S7 however.
She almost looks pleased when he tells her off in S7E5 when he does his "I don't need your permission, I am a king"-speech.

Hmm... true.  very true.  And as u say, we may never know.

But she does keep insisting that he bend the knee.  By doing so, Jon would declare himself not her equal.

 

8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Varys says this after he's already decided to turn on Daenerys and is trying to get Tyrion on board. I wouldn't really trust anything Varys says regarding her at this point. He's not being objective, he has his own agenda. 

Mmmmm....no (I think).  Varys said that on the boat, before he had decided to turn on Daenarys.  I took it as info for us, the viewers.

 

8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:


Many have already pointed out that Daenerys are more than willing to share power,

Can you share some examples?  Her only sharing of power was with Drogo, to my recollection.

Insisting that everyone bend the knee is the epitome of not willing to share power.

 

8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

but then it ultimately doesn't matter because Jon doesn't want power. It would be the perfect arrangement for them both, in addition to solve more or less all of the issues regarding succession and claims.

For them, yes.  Not so for others, such as the North.  the North would have insisted on some kind of power sharing.  Like Ferdinand and Isabella of Aragon and Castille, perhaps.

8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:


It's the same with him saying "Jon won't want to marry her because she is his aunt", there is no precedent for this statement, as the last couple of pages in this very thread has clearly shown. We (the audience) don't even know why Jon is reluctant, we can only guess, and If we don't know, then Varys doesn't, and it's just something he said in order to get Tyrion on board.

Again I disagree.  Varys said that before he turned his cloak.  It was exposition for the audience.  Jon was raised with Northern morals, or Ned Stark's morals, not Valyrian ones.

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7 hours ago, T and A said:

Her Dresden? Pardon me? She just comited the worst genocide in probably the history of Westeros, to unarmed civilans. She became the biggest monster of the story. A Ramsay Bolton with Dragons. She is unredeamable. 

Question. Is 'genocide' the correct term?  What she did wasn't directed a particular group (ethnic or otherwise).  But it was mass slaughter.  And likely the worst since the First Long Night.  She may have surpassed the Night Kings death toll for the Second Not-Quite-So-Long Night.

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15 hours ago, Vernon Roche said:

 For me, this season has all the big building blocks and none of the cement that helps keep the wall you're building structurally sound. Just little additions, extra character driven scenes. Dany going mad has been given context and groundwork earlier, but the execution of the "snap" has been so rushed that what should be a massive moment is... oh ok, that's where we are going then?

Agree.  :agree:

 

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Haven't read the entire thread so sorry if this has been said/the topic has completely changed:

I don't think Jon necessarily had to get down and dirty with Dany to show her he loved her so she would feel loved and suddenly that would make her not burn everything and choose fear. I don't think this is anyone's fault but Dany's. She made the decision to burn King's Landing. It was her decision, no matter the outside forces that may have swayed her one way or another. She always had the choice there and even if she was in a crappy situation in many ways, she still had the choice.

 

BUT I do think Jon really could've at least done more to help Dany out in that time. Like. Dude. USE YOUR WORDS. Don't just reject her when she's in her lowest. Like, can't you just say "Hey Dany, I'm having an identity crisis right now and also you're my aunt and I wasn't raised with the idea that incest is okay" or something? God forbid you have a heart-to-heart talk or something you emotionally constipated brooding potato. 

You should understand how she feels alone and lost her friends and is surrounded by enemies. You were killed by your own brothers once! Seriously.

So I don't think this isn't Jon's fault but if he had more than the emotional range that god gave a piece of cardboard, he'd probably do a lot better.

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19 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Just like Sansa demanded that Rickon's safety as the rightful Lord of Winterfell was paramount.

In retrospect I'd like to think Sansa was deliberately plotting to let Rickon die so she could be Queen in the North. But it appears she was devious AND careless. 

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4 minutes ago, darmody said:

In retrospect I'd like to think Sansa was deliberately plotting to let Rickon die so she could be Queen in the North. But it appears she was devious AND careless. 

*jumps into a conversation she has no part in so please feel free to shoo her out if needed*

I don't think Sansa was plotting for Rickon to die or to really be Queen in the North. It seemed in Season Six she was focused on getting her home back and she specifically mentions saving him from Ramsay.

But at the same time...Rickon was (then) basically Ned's last legitimate male heir and Sansa knew that in a way it was hopeless. Ramsay would never leave such a threat alive.

But I think a big point here is that she still tried anyway to save him and take back Winterfell. I feel like they could've done more after his death with her and Jon mourning because they really did so little, but I think at that time in the show, after all the brutalization she received from Ramsay, she just wanted to be safe and have Winterfell back.

Though I'm strictly speaking of that time period. While I don't think Sansa is trying to harm her own family specifically now, I do admit she's definitely playing the game to some end--either to advance her family or herself.

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Apparently, it is commonly accepted that people who lose their temper and go tf off after months of humiliation, painful setbacks, shocking disappointments and devastating losses that were all completely avoidable are mentally unstable and "mad."

Are kids who blow up at bullies and attack the bullies after no one does anything to stop the bully mentally unstable? Have people who finally lash out at and break up with their abusive, manipulative significant others gone mad? Are people who have their backs up against the wall expected to ask nicely to get some breathing room?

This is why we can't really get anywhere as a society any more.

We continually and purposefully confuse people getting carried away by strong emotions in the face of stressful situations with mental illness and immorality...and vice versa. And then we wonder why the mentally ill don't get the help that the physically ill get.

It doesn't make sense.

Is Daenerys wrong for overreacting and forgetting herself? Yes. But it doesn't make her evil or insane.

No one calls the person who flew into a rage evil because he/she broke furniture and put a hole in the wall.

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2 hours ago, Ilissa said:

I do not agree with you, but in any case it does not matter. We are talking about laws and traditions. The laws and traditions of Westeros do not prohibit such marriages.
"Not Asha. In his heart, Aeron had always loved Asha best of all his brother Balon’s children. The Drowned God had blessed her with a warrior’s spirit and the wisdom of a king—but he had cursed her with a woman’s body, too. No woman had ever ruled the Iron Islands. She should never have made a claim. She should have spoken for Victarion, added her own strength to his.

It was not too late, Aeron had decided as he shivered in the sea. If Victarion took Asha for his wife, they could yet rule together, king and queen. In ancient days, each isle had its Salt King and its Rock King. Let the Old Way return."

You are citing the Ironborn.... a culture who doesn't follow Old Gods nor Faith. Do Northerners and those of the Faith in Westeros take salt wives and thralls? No, they don't.

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Posted (edited)
32 minutes ago, Tywin Tytosson said:

Question. Is 'genocide' the correct term?  What she did wasn't directed a particular group (ethnic or otherwise).  But it was mass slaughter.  And likely the worst since the First Long Night.  She may have surpassed the Night Kings death toll for the Second Not-Quite-So-Long Night.

I agree, this wasn't genocide because she didn't target a specific ethnic or religious group, but everyone present. 
The correct term would probably be mass-slaughter/carnage/murder. Ultimately it's semantics.

And if what we are lead to believe the (admittedly, scarce) info we have about populations in various places of Westeros, including the North, then we can calculate the following:
* In S7E7 Tyrion tells Jon that there "lives a million people in Kings Landing", to which Jon replies "That's more than the entire North". 
* We don't know how many wildlings lived beyond the wall, but probably way fewer than the population of the North. I believe Mance claimed that he had roughly 100.000 wildlings in his army, which at the time compassed almost every combat-able wildling north of the wall.
*Jon saved "several thousand" wildlings in his endeavor, and the rest was killed by the AotD.
*A large portion of the population in the North was also ultimately killed by the AotD, but we can't say how many for certain. Half is probably a gross overestimation, but we can roll with it for the sake of argument. We also don't know how big the population of the North is, just that it's less...fewer (sorry Stannis) than one million. So for the sake of argument, let's say that it's close to a million, but not quite: 900.000.

So, the NK and the AotD killed the majority of the wildlings, which including the old and the children probably number between 100.000-150.000 a number that corresponds nicely with what Daenerys said in S7E7 about her "seeing them all, a 100.000 at least".
Then they (generously counting) killed half of the North, which (also generously counting) consisted of 900.000, for an additional 450.000 casualties.
All in all, the NK and the AotD killed roughly between 500.000-600.000. And this is being very generous, and assumes that the AotD actually cleansed large parts of the North before attacking Winterfell. A more realistic number would probably be somewhere between 150.000-300.000.

So where does that leave Daenerys?
Well, Kings Landing had a population of roughly one million. We don't know how many fled the city before the attack, but we are lead to believe that it wasn't particularly many. We also don't know (yet) how many survived the attack, but things are looking very grim.
Let's again, be very generous and say that half of the population either fled or survived the initial attack. That still means 500.000 people died, but probably way more.

So yeah, ultimately, it's not a stretch to assume that Daenerys may very well have killed more people on her own in one episode, than the entire AotD did over the course of 7 whole seasons...

Again, they really f*cked up my favorite character this season. :bang:

Edited by MinscS2

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3 minutes ago, Jabar of House Titan said:

Apparently, it is commonly accepted that people who lose their temper and go tf off after months of humiliation, painful setbacks, shocking disappointments and devastating losses that were all completely avoidable are mentally unstable and "mad."

Are kids who blow up at bullies and attack the bullies after no one does anything to stop the bully mentally unstable? Have people who finally lash out at and break up with their abusive, manipulative significant others gone mad? Are people who have their backs up against the wall expected to ask nicely to get some breathing room?

This is why we can't really get anywhere as a society any more.

We continually and purposefully confuse people getting carried away by strong emotions in the face of stressful situations with mental illness and immorality...and vice versa. And then we wonder why the mentally ill don't get the help that the physically ill get.

It doesn't make sense.

Is Daenerys wrong for overreacting and forgetting herself? Yes. But it doesn't make her evil or insane.

No one calls the person who flew into a rage evil because he/she broke furniture and put a hole in the wall.

I actually have a lot of experience with this and I totally agree. I was bullied to the point of severe PTSD with no one doing anything for most of my life + endured a lot of emotional abuse at home, etc. and by the time I 'snapped' (in which I 

Spoiler

threatened to shoot up the school 

) and tried to get help because it terrified me as a usually non-violent person, I ended up getting expelled and basically written off as a terrible youth crime-risk student and spent the rest of my school days with other juvie-type kids in which all of us were suffering from issues that none of us got help for because we were just considered 'bad' and 'mad'. We were just kids. Hurt kids. But no one wanted anything to do with us.

So yeah, I agree with this a lot. It's a really big problem and I dislike how they made it look like this with Dany. They could've done so many other things re: her character if they truly wanted her to have a satisfying 'mad queen' ending to her arc but they chose this cop out. 

 

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:


So, the NK and the AotD killed the majority of the wildlings, which including the old and the children probably number between 100.000-150.000 a number that corresponds nicely with what Daenerys said in S7E7 about her "seeing them all, a 100.000 at least".
Then they (generously counting) killed half of the North, which (also generously counting) consisted of 900.000, for an additional 450.000 casualties.
All in all, the NK and the AotD killed roughly between 500.000-600.000. And this is being very generous, and assumes that the AotD actually cleansed large parts of the North before attacking Winterfell. A more realistic number would probably be somewhere between 150.000-300.000.

 

150,000 - 300,00 was what I guestimated the AotD was at when they attacked Winterfell.  

They came down in the eastern 1/4- 1/3 of the North.  As you said, they may not have cleaned up behind themselves.  Castle Black was not attacked.  Tormund and Beric got away.   I doubt that Deepwood Motte was attacked (long live House Glover! :) ).  The AotD looked to come more or less straight for Winterfell.

 

Quote


So where does that leave Daenerys?
Well, Kings Landing had a population of roughly one million. We don't know how many fled the city before the attack, but we are lead to believe that it wasn't particularly many. We also don't know (yet) how many survived the attack, but things are looking very grim.
Let's again, be very generous and say that half of the population either fled or survived the initial attack. That still means 500.000 people died, but probably way more.

We saw people fleeing the countryside and going into KL.  I'd guess there were 750,000+ in the city.

50% casualties would be 375,000+.   More than the guestimate that I made re. the size of the AotD.

 

Quote


So yeah, ultimately, it's not a stretch to assume that Daenerys may very well have killed more people on her own in one episode, than the entire AotD did over the course of 7 whole seasons...

No.  Not a stretch at all.

I did forget the wars between Valyria and Old Ghis.  And The Doom.  Those may have been more destructive than the Second Long Night or the Sack.

 

Quote



Again, they really f*cked up my favorite character this season. :bang:


Here we thought Ice and Fire was Stark and Targaryen.  But it turned out to be the Night King and the Dragon Queen. :unsure: :P

 

 

Edited by Tywin Tytosson

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1 hour ago, Pandean said:

Haven't read the entire thread so sorry if this has been said/the topic has completely changed:

I don't think Jon necessarily had to get down and dirty with Dany to show her he loved her so she would feel loved and suddenly that would make her not burn everything and choose fear. I don't think this is anyone's fault but Dany's. She made the decision to burn King's Landing. It was her decision, no matter the outside forces that may have swayed her one way or another. She always had the choice there and even if she was in a crappy situation in many ways, she still had the choice.

 

BUT I do think Jon really could've at least done more to help Dany out in that time. Like. Dude. USE YOUR WORDS. Don't just reject her when she's in her lowest. Like, can't you just say "Hey Dany, I'm having an identity crisis right now and also you're my aunt and I wasn't raised with the idea that incest is okay" or something? God forbid you have a heart-to-heart talk or something you emotionally constipated brooding potato. 

You should understand how she feels alone and lost her friends and is surrounded by enemies. You were killed by your own brothers once! Seriously.

So I don't think this isn't Jon's fault but if he had more than the emotional range that god gave a piece of cardboard, he'd probably do a lot better.

One of the main reasons why I was never convinced of their "love". It's not enough that Kit is a boring and awful actor. With Emilia's acting I'm more convinced that Dany loves Jon.

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lots of good points here - he doesn't do any PR for her at all. at the victory feast he does not join her at all and I know it is because of the family/blood relationship, but ffs come on - she saved the north. yep and I also really miss a convo with someone about how he really feels about her with davos or arya - nothing! we are left to guess. I didn't really need this ending. it has made me loose a lot of respect for jon and feel more for dany (who is not my fav at all). it has left a sour taste.

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All those people hid in their houses when apocalypse came. It`s hard to belive all those peoples didn`t know about The Great War and great doom who came to wipe them out, even this is medieval time in Westeros. Remember The faith of the seven, Lord of light, Azor Ahai, Many face God, The Old gods, etc. Instead of cheering her for saving their lives, they hide from her.

They did no action against dictators. They where hypocrite, they rebel against Mad King but stood and watch others dictators.

In life either you fight or die. You can`t stand and watch.

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1 hour ago, Sir Hedge of Hog said:

 it has made me loose a lot of respect for jon and feel more for dany (who is not my fav at all). it has left a sour taste.

+1

And the taste is that of je-m'en-foutisme (=don't-give-a-damn attitude) and incompetence.

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4 hours ago, darmody said:

Battle of the Bastards ought to have demonstrated for all time that he's a Battle Idiot. But he didn't do perform badly here. All he had to do was march up a street, admittedly. But he is shown being able to restrain most of his men when Greyworm and Danny go nuts. There isn't much Jon can do about the Unsullied, Dothraki, and Drogo rampaging, because he doesn't have formal authority over them. 

I don't blame him for not being able to control Unsullied or Dothraki. I blame him for not being able to control Northerners.

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