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Daemos

This is all Jon’s fault

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16 minutes ago, Arakan said:

No, Jon is not to blame for Dany‘s genocidal rampage. So he didn’t love Dany enough and so it’s all his fault. Tough luck. Happens to all of us at one point in live. Deal with it. 

First of all, let's drop terms like genocide. This was not about race, religion, ethnicity or a whole people. It was about one city, with probably a million inhabitants, most of them still alive, hidden away in houses. She causes unimaginable suffering and killed ten thousands, maybe even a hundred thousand. But not more. King's Landing in not extinct or so. This was about a rampage and instilling fear, probably about freaking out, but not at all about genocide. 

Secondly, of course Daenerys is responsible for her actions. She alone. Of course she is. Not Jon at all.

But Jon's inability to reciprocate her affections were the proverbial last straw that broke the camels back. The kissing scene is the decisive moment where Daenerys decides "alright, let it be fear". That's true nonetheless.

It just got too much for Daenerys. To less love. Too much hate. To many losses. To much hardship. To much lonesomeness. None of the other is responsible for her actions, but a lot of this triggered her actions nonetheless.

There is an important difference between cause and responsibility.

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1 minute ago, Kajjo said:

First of all, let's drop terms like genocide. This was not about race, religion, ethnicity or a whole people. It was about one city, with probably a million inhabitants, most of them still alive, hidden away in houses. She causes unimaginable suffering and killed ten thousands, maybe even a hundred thousand. But not more. King's Landing in not extinct or so. This was about a rampage and instilling fear, probably about freaking out, but not at all about genocide. 

Secondly, of course Daenerys is responsible for her actions. She alone. Of course she is. Not Jon at all.

But Jon's inability to reciprocate her affections were the proverbial last straw that broke the camels back. The kissing scene is the decisive moment where Daenerys decides "alright, let it be fear". That's true nonetheless.

It just got too much for Daenerys. To less love. Too much hate. To many losses. To much hardship. To much lonesomeness. None of the other is responsible for her actions, but a lot of this triggered her actions nonetheless.

There is an important difference between cause and responsibility.

I agree. Yes there are reasons for her dark personality traits to come out in full force. I agree. 

But the post I quoted explicitly blamed Jon. It’s there for all to read. And this is not only not correct, it is dishonest and denial. 

Regarding the term „genocide“, well no one of us is a human rights lawyer (I am not), so yes, I should be more carefully in using this term. But there is a case to be made that she targeted „Westerosi“ indiscriminately because those „Westerosi“ never showed her the affection and love she „deserved”. Was it a spontaneous decision? Did she had thoughts about this before? One can argue that her statement „let it be fear“ points in the direction that it wasn’t so spontaneous at all. Then we are in the ballpark of genocide. 

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I do feel that Jon Snow has been weak and worthless this season.

He couldn't keep a secret for five minutes that Ned kept until his grave. He couldn't control his men during the sack of KIng's Landing. The worst was when he just stared at Dany dumbly after she said "fear it is, then". I mean, he didn't have to give into the incest if he felt uncomfortable with banging his really hot aunt, but there are things he could have said to try to bring her back from the edge, like reminding her that she's as much family to him as Sansa and Arya.

But yeah, that would have required him to utter more something than three-word sentences like "you're my queen" or "she's my queen" or "she's our queen" or "she's your queen". Kit Harrington has become one of the most highly paid extras ever.

Add him to the list of characters who make no sense anymore.

 

 

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"really hot aunt?"

Sir/madam, she is ugly on the inside.

Varys burns-->Jon can't kiss her.

Thank heavens, Jon doesnt get a boner after watching people being burned alive. 

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1 hour ago, Darryk said:

Add him to the list of characters who make no sense anymore.

I am baffled as to exactly why R'hllor brought Jon back from death. 

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21 minutes ago, Wsc48 said:

I am baffled as to exactly why R'hllor brought Jon back from death. 

Beric also... He fulfilled his purpose at a corridor in a scene that nobody remembers. 

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Just now, Nightwish said:

Beric also... He fulfilled his purpose at a corridor in a scene that nobody remembers. 

And the red comet, the hatching of the dragon eggs… but I don't expect any explanation from the show.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Jon and Dany actually having a heart to heart moment isnt going to happen after Dany just did something utterly terrifying and blamed Sansa for her own actions. In fact, Jon has never had a heart to heart with Dany because he never tells her how he really feels or talks about his own life with her.

This is wrong, and you know it.
They've had at least one real heart to heart, back in S7E6 on the boat after the wight hunt.
Jon basically showered Daenerys with admiration and respect, and the sudden impact of his feelings for her basically overwhelmed her to the point that she began to question her own worthiness(!) and started to cry.

Jon had ample opportunity to do the same thing again before she went berserk (preferably in episode 4), but then the script clearly said that he's not allowed to act and talk like a normal rational human being this season so...

3 hours ago, Wsc48 said:

I am baffled as to exactly why R'hllor brought Jon back from death. 

 

2 hours ago, Nowy Tends said:

And the red comet, the hatching of the dragon eggs… but I don't expect any explanation from the show.

Add "why is Daenerys immune to fire" and "what is the point of the WW symbols" and "what is the point and source of the 3ER's magic" to the list.

Ultimately we're left with a long list of valid questions that most likely will never get answered, because there's only 1 episode left and still so many knots left that needs to be untied (but will probably be cut in a unsatisfactory manner...)
 

Edited by MinscS2

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On 5/14/2019 at 11:26 AM, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

 

 

You're basically saying Dany went on a rampage because Jon wouldn't screw her. Do you know how insulting that actually is (to Dany)? I think I already replied to this thread, but this needed addressing. What Dany did is entirely on her and her alone. 

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People and events don’t exist in a vacuum. You tempt the bull you get the horns, or in this case you tempt the dragon and you get fire and blood. It doesn’t make Dany mad and certainly not a true villain.

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21 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

This is wrong, and you know it.
They've had at least one real heart to heart, back in S7E6 on the boat after the wight hunt.
Jon basically showered Daenerys with admiration and respect, and the sudden impact of his feelings for her basically overwhelmed her to the point that she began to question her own worthiness(!) and started to cry.

Oh yes that moving conversation in which the following topics were discussed:  

- Her dragons

- Her infertility

- Her titles

- Her awesomeness (for some reason?)

His long-lost uncle had just died, Jon himself had almost died. Did he even share one personal bit of insight with her, about hImself? Did she express concern for him? No. It's all about HER HER HER. 

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1 minute ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

Oh yes that moving conversation in which the following topics were discussed:  

- Her dragons

- Her infertility

- Her titles

- Her awesomeness (for some reason?)

His long-lost uncle had just died, Jon himself had almost died. Did he even share one personal bit of insight with her, about hImself? Did she express concern for him? No. It's all about HER HER HER. 

Stop moving the fucking goalposts every time you are proven wrong.

This is what you said:

Jon has never had a heart to heart with Dany because he never tells her how he really feels or talks[...]



This scene was a genuine heart to hear, where he told her exactly how he felt about her.

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Posted (edited)
8 minutes ago, MinscS2 said:

Stop moving the fucking goalposts every time you are proven wrong.

This is what you said:



This scene was a genuine heart to hear, where he told her exactly how he felt about her.

Within the context of giving her a title - that's not real human interaction. That's just Jon being used as a prop to validate her ego and throw more titles at her

Does he have emotions, feelings of his own? Are all of them about Dany now? Why not express distress about seeing his uncle for the last time? Why not have an actual human moment where titles and dragons-as-children arent mentioned?

The last time he seemed to actually be himself was when he was being critical of her actions.

"If you melt cities and burn castles, you're not different. You're just more of the same." Can't wait to see his thoughts ON HER NOW. 

 

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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Arguing whether or not Jon shared his feelings with Dany is just silly. We don't know, and we can't know. The show didn't follow Jon and Dany 24/7, and we weren't privy to their post-coital conversations. 

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2 minutes ago, Lady Dayne said:

we weren't privy to their post-coital conversations

hahaha but we were with Daario and Dany. 

See. This romance is a farce. 

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On 5/14/2019 at 12:26 PM, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

What I keep coming back to is the sense that it is EVERYONE’s fault. So many factors led to what Dany did and nearly every surviving character can likely recognize their part in it.

Olena told Dany to ignore clever men and be a dragon. Missandei chose Dracarys as her last word.

Grey Worm obeyed everything always without question, even when questions from him might have been wise. He let her feel entitled to that kind of obedience, and believe that ruling was her destiny regardless of legal right to the throne.

Tyrion always knew what she was capable of but deluded himself into believing she could be contained with the right advice. And then he went and ensured that she would have no faith in his advice or intensions.

Jon couldn’t look past a private wrong (incest, childless) to acknowledge a greater problem (a contested rule). And if not prepared to accept his identity he should never have told anyone at all.

Sansa should have done more to make Dany feel appreciated for assisting the North against the NK. The deep personal losses combined with complete lack of gratitude in return were key to Dany’s dangerous isolation from the people she meant to rule. (As for Jon’s secret, sorry Sansa haters but that is all on Jon).

Davos was well placed to have concerns about a ruler with a history of burning people, but he never voiced any. Similarly, awarning from Jaime to Tyrion would have been appropriate.

As for Bran, I rather suspect he knew this would happen but he didn’t warn. I think he was trying to let the world know that Fire was as great a threat as Ice ever was, and it too needed to be stopped.

 

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1 hour ago, Ellimental said:

 What Dany did is entirely on her and her alone. 

You must have watched a different series.

Why do you think the Dumb&Dumber suddenly and ridiculously transformed the Starks and the Northerners into a bunch of ungrateful and hateful xenophobes, with a Lannister-like arrogance?

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On 5/14/2019 at 5:02 AM, King Jon Snow Stark said:

But it’s not common practice with the Starks. 

Eddard's parents were first cousins.

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