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This is all Jon’s fault

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56 minutes ago, darmody said:

No reason? How about it's icky. Entirely apart from genetic concerns. 

But as long as we're on the subject, you share 1/4 of your genes with your aunt/uncle. Which is the same relationship he thought he had with Sansa and Arya. He didn't grow up with Danny, admittedly. But what if he sees Arya's face when he kisses her? Eww. 

As for not the same as banned, marrying your first cousin is legal in some U.S. states. If I lived in one of them (which I don't, actually), would I be allowed to be grossed out by the idea?

 "A good guy doesn't sleep with his aunt" isn't a good argument for the books, either, by the way. There's absolutely no reason such little mention has been made of the prospect of marriage, especially before they knew about Jon's mommy and daddy. But it is enough of a reason for Jon not to sleep with her. In the middle of all this. It hasn't even been that long. 

But he tried to sleep with her in previous episode. The fact that she is his aunt didn't bother him then, why should that be the case now?

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13 minutes ago, Wolfking007 said:

But he tried to sleep with her in previous episode. The fact that she is his aunt didn't bother him then, why should that be the case now?

What do you mean tried to? Twice we've seen them kiss since they both knew. Twice they didn't have sex. 

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1 hour ago, darmody said:

How about it's icky.

It is not "icky" for medieval society. You should not project your feelings on book characters.

1 hour ago, darmody said:

isn't a good argument for the books, either, by the way.

No way. Even in the Starks family there were such marriages.

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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Ilissa said:

It is not "icky" for medieval society. You should not project your feelings on book characters.

Far as I know, marriage was prohibited in Medieval times up to the fourth degree, which would be first cousins. Aunt/nephew is 3rd degree, worse than 4th. Definitely against the law. 

It's not clear to me our society looks down upon them more, because back then you had canon law in addition to regular law. 

Edited by darmody

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1 hour ago, Wolfking007 said:

But he tried to sleep with her in previous episode. The fact that she is his aunt didn't bother him then, why should that be the case now?

No, he was the one that pulled back that time, too.  He's obviously still attracted to her, but something stops him every time.  

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On 5/14/2019 at 3:44 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

No matter what the conversation is about you said that Daenerys does not listen to Jon. However, that is not true. I showed you that the exact opposite is true.

Outside of Grey Worm and her still nameless Dothraki lieutenants (which are called them kos or bloodriders), Jon is the only person who she listens to now.

The post that you originally quoted from me has my explanation and the proof of how Jon is partially responsible for the "fall" of Daenerys. If he would have married her or just even just explained his feelings for her, she would be more secure and more confident if not happier. There is no reason for them not to have been married at this point. Noblemen don't just openly sleep with and cavort noblewomen without any betrothal or engagement. That's a massive dishonor and a black mark against both the man and the woman (especially the woman)

If Jon was truly so honorable, he should have proposed and insisted upon the marriage himself. That's the whole reason Robb decided to marry Talisa. He slept with her and she's a highborn woman (as foreign as she is) and he married her because he is honorable and did not want to dishonor her.

Instead of pressing Jon to backstab and overthrow Daenerys or worrying about saving Cersei, Varys and Tyrion should have been pressuring Jon and Daenerys to marry. It is the most sensible, cleanest thing to do. They already have a history and they already like each other.

In fact, a marriage between them would have makes the conflict between Jon and Daenerys and then Jon and Sansa in season 7 even more redundant and irrelevant. Marriage between them would given the North to Dany and given the Unsullied and the Dothraki to Jon. They both get what they want (Dany gets another one of the Seven Kingdoms without bloodshed and Jon gets a gigantic army and the rights to Dragonstone's dragonglass) and set out to kick ass of their enemies.

I'm not saying it had to happen the moment that they met each other in 7x03. But the engagement definitely should have happened by the end of 7x06. If not in, 7x07. Dany is a romantic and Jon is too in the way. Lots of really romantic, memorable spots:

  • the precipices of Dragonstone
  • the beaches of Dragonstone
  • the cave with the ominous, yet-to-be-explained paintings of the White Walkers, the Children of the Forest and the First Men on Dragonstone
  • the Chamber of the Painted Table, overlooking the sea
  • atop the Wall overlooking both sides of Westeros
  • on the boat underneath the stars
  • the Dragonpit

If they had to wait to have the wedding in White Harbor or Winterfell to send a clear political message, then have the two walk up to a heart tree in the godswoods of White Harbor or Winterfell in 8x01.

Sansa, the political genius that we all know her to be, should have made this a mandatory issue that Daenerys and Jon would have been glad to accept. Even Littlefinger saw the brilliance in such a maneuver.

Daenerys saved Jon's life twice. Once is enough to be indebted to her.

I don't disagree at all, but wouldn't this point more towards the writing? I mean in order for things to be where they are a lot of characters have to act out of character. Thats a huge hole Dany and jon not even considering Marriage. Tyrion thinks it, varys is like she's too strong for him, she'd bend him to her will. Even if thats true, it would stave off the unnecessary struggles.Again I agree with you i just think is poor writing more then Jons characters decisions. Because even in the "inside the episode" they don't even mention Dany being his Aunt as a catalyst to why he's rejecting her... They even say "At the moment" meaning his feeling could change. Logically thats absurd to never discuss that. 

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There were only two Stark uncle/niece marriages and they were both power grabs. All through the books, incest and incest-toned situations are connected to myopic/backward/Game of Thrones/etc thinking, including power grabs. And those Stark uncles were only half-uncles. Note the lack of actual uncle/niece and aunt/nephew marriages in 5000 pages of the actual books with countless characters and matches. That tells you what Westeros thinks of it right there. 

In the books, Victarion contemplates marrying his niece Asha/Yara for a power grab but he dismisses it as seriously messed up. He later comes to get wrapped up with Moqorro (sp?) who changes him and now Victarion seems poised to be a key figure in the fight against the Others which is the true threat and recognizing that is the opposite of myopic Game of Thrones thinking. 

The show is carrying on the book theme. Jaime leaves incest as he goes on to recognize the true threat of the Others, and Jon and Dany unknowingly engage in incest as they damage the war against the Others when Jon kneels for no reason despite being told how the Northerners would react to this and Dany accepts his kneeling while also having known the problems. Then we have Jaime going back to incest as he loses the big picture and we have Jon rejecting incest as he's starting to understand the big picture. Dany is trying to engage in incest as her vision becomes so myopically focused on the Game of Thrones that we had that result. The show didn't reveal that Jon and Dany were aunt/nephew while they boinked for the first time because we were supposed to see it as ok. And to further underscore the problem in case folks didn't understand, they had Rhaegar look like Viserys' twin. 

But what REALLY pisses me off about people advocating uncle/niece and aunt/nephew marriages as ok in any sense, even a fictional fantasy context, is that uncles and aunts are supposed to be the backup safe places for children in the absence of the parents. They are secondary parents but openness to these marriages throws the doors open wide to the possibility of pedophilic grooming of one's siblings' children as future sexual partners which is a foul and tragic breech of the trust of the child who can't defend himself or herself. GRRM addresses with Victarion. If you have a close extended family as is so common in Westeros, it's truly only a step removed from sleeping with one's own children. I can't express enough how disturbing this is. 

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3 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

No, he was the one that pulled back that time, too.  He's obviously still attracted to her, but something stops him every time.  

I didn't really see attraction to her before that. Interesting that it's shown, when he's drunk. Dany only looks attractive with beer goggles maybe?

To rehabilitate his character, it's better if he's not attracted to Dany because of her shitty personal qualities, not because of the incest. Dany can act like a paranoid, controlling asshole but all that bothers him is that they're related? Ok. 

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3 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

I didn't really see attraction to her before that. Interesting that it's shown, when he's drunk. Dany only looks attractive with beer goggles maybe?

To rehabilitate his character, it's better if he's not attracted to Dany because of her shitty personal qualities, not because of the incest. Dany can act like a paranoid, controlling asshole but all that bothers him is that they're related? Ok. 

I've seen physical attraction, but I've never bought that he loves her.  But its hard to say whether that is just poor directing/writing or whether they have been saying all along that he isn't that into her.  

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1 minute ago, Red Dragon10 said:

I've seen physical attraction, but I've never bought that he loves her.  But its hard to say whether that is just poor directing/writing or whether they have been saying all along that he isn't that into her.  

That's true. They've really blocked out Jon's POV the entire two seasons. We're just left to guess.

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7 hours ago, Ilissa said:

It is not "icky" for medieval society. You should not project your feelings on book characters.

These two sentences are the biggest crap points that are ever made in all of these forums. Judging imaginary societies and imaginary characters is literally why fiction exists.

Westeros isn't a "medieval society". It's a fictional society. The only reality in which Westeros actually exists is the late-20th and early-21st centuries. Of course we can judge the standards of a fictional society by our own standards. That's why fictional societies exist.

Of course we can project our feelings on book characters. They're also fictional and only exist in the minds of readers, who are modern-day people, every single one of them. These characters are written in these books for the exact purpose of us readers judging them by our own feelings and experiences. That's why fictional characters exist.

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20 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

These characters are written in these books for the exact purpose of us readers judging them by our own feelings and experiences. That's why fictional characters exist. 

Nonsense. We should not look at the pseudo-medieval world from the modern point of view. The monarchy in the 21st century is not normal. In Westeros it is normal. In the 21st century closely related marriages are not normal. In Westeros it is normal.

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7 hours ago, Red Dragon10 said:

No, he was the one that pulled back that time, too.  He's obviously still attracted to her, but something stops him every time.  

I thought it has been pretty obvious that the aunt/nephew incest thing is what's holding him back.  They were all lovey-dovey in episode 1 of this season but since Episode 4 Jon has been pulling back.  They even referenced this in episode 4 when Dany or Jon (I forget who) said something along the lines of "I wish we could go back to the way things were before" in the middle of the conversation about Jon sharing his secret identity with his family.  

Now I'd have to imagine post Episode 5 that Jon would also have good reason to pull back based on the destruction of King's Landing.  

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27 minutes ago, The Ned's Little Girl said:

These two sentences are the biggest crap points that are ever made in all of these forums. Judging imaginary societies and imaginary characters is literally why fiction exists.

Westeros isn't a "medieval society". It's a fictional society. The only reality in which Westeros actually exists is the late-20th and early-21st centuries. Of course we can judge the standards of a fictional society by our own standards. That's why fictional societies exist.

Of course we can project our feelings on book characters. They're also fictional and only exist in the minds of readers, who are modern-day people, every single one of them. These characters are written in these books for the exact purpose of us readers judging them by our own feelings and experiences. That's why fictional characters exist.

Can't agree more. 

The reader was introduced to the world through the honorable and remarkably modern Ned Stark. When we were shown the gravity of judgement and death through Ned's the man who passes the sentence should swing the sword, when Bran the reader was told to not look away or he'll know, when the Stark kids even to this day keep asking themselves what would Ned do? What mistakes of Ned's should I not repeat?, it tells the reader directly that we're supposed to use our modern judgement for this world. 

And I'll add that whenever I see this claim about not judging Westeros by modern standards, it inevitably comes with hypocrisy because I almost always see that same poster turn around and do it to their non-favored characters. If Dany can't be judged for atrocities, then neither can Joff, Ramsey, Tywin, and the long list that follows. It's all ok. 

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3 hours ago, Tagganaro said:

I thought it has been pretty obvious that the aunt/nephew incest thing is what's holding him back.  They were all lovey-dovey in episode 1 of this season but since Episode 4 Jon has been pulling back.  They even referenced this in episode 4 when Dany or Jon (I forget who) said something along the lines of "I wish we could go back to the way things were before" in the middle of the conversation about Jon sharing his secret identity with his family.  

Now I'd have to imagine post Episode 5 that Jon would also have good reason to pull back based on the destruction of King's Landing.  

It wasn't very obvious to me. I guess the reason I question if this is his issue is a couple things:

1. He never says what his issue is. 

2. He starts pulling back from her after he finds out she is his aunt BUT is this because she is his aunt or because she is his queen?

3. If I were Jon & my issue with being with someone was that they related to me (which absolutely would be my issue but I'm not living in Westeros) I would A. Not let her kiss me again. I know he pulls back but he let's her kiss him a little first. You would think if it was grossing him out he would pull back before contact was made. & B. Not tell her I love her. I would tell her, listen I'm your nephew & I care about you as an aunt & nothing more. Instead he says "I love you, you will always be my Queen." Now I know Jon is a man of few words but if this is his issue I think we should have had maybe a statement from Dany saying "This is no big deal, I was going to marry my brother." Or something. 

I know we get a brief mention of the incest aspect from Varys & Tyrion but it isn't the only reason given for why they shouldn't marry. 

Possibly it's a multitude of things but if his issue were that she were his aunt you would think that would trump the other issues. 

What would you do in a similar situation? What if it had gone farther? Would that make a difference? Don't get me wrong I personally would never willingly participate in incest but what if you found out today that your gf/bf/husband/wife was related to you some how? Obviously you wouldn't have grown up with them or you would know. If you are already in love do you leave them? If you have already had sex do you stop? What if you have already had children? I guess I think if it had already gone that far what would be the point in separating now? Unless of course it disgusts you more than you love/d them. Which makes sense but I don't think love turns off like that. 

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Jon basically gave Daenerys blue balls - twice. (Is there a blue balls-euphemism for women? English isn't my native language.)

If he was repulsed by being sexually involved with his aunt, then he has a strange way of showing it, by actually making out with her for a short while in E4 before pulling back, and then by letting her kiss him in E5 before just freezing without uttering a single word. Yeah, great job Jon, don't let that silver tongue of yours get in the way of acting like a regular human.
Also let's not forget how he let her snuggle up against him in the crypts in E2. 

I hope we get an explanation for his behavior and thoughts on the matter before the show ends, but I'm not betting on it...

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On 5/14/2019 at 5:32 AM, tallTale said:

Nope. It’s the bad story telling. We have many episodes of proof showing Daenys ability to show restraint and compassion for the innocent, to the point she chained her dragon for killing one innocent person. And all that build up thrown away because Jon , a man she’s only known briefly, doesn’t love her? She’s been through much worse, and didn’t go mad. She deserved a better resolution.

No, it wasn't just that. It's many things, and this has been going on the whole story long whether people want to acknowledge this or not. Don't hyperfocus on singular elements.

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22 hours ago, MinscS2 said:

Jon basically gave Daenerys blue balls - twice. (Is there a blue balls-euphemism for women? English isn't my native language.)

If he was repulsed by being sexually involved with his aunt, then he has a strange way of showing it, by actually making out with her for a short while in E4 before pulling back, and then by letting her kiss him in E5 before just freezing without uttering a single word. Yeah, great job Jon, don't let that silver tongue of yours get in the way of acting like a regular human.
Also let's not forget how he let her snuggle up against him in the crypts in E2. 

I hope we get an explanation for his behavior and thoughts on the matter before the show ends, but I'm not betting on it...

Well put. I rather doubt that the whole auntie thing was his main concern, for the reasons you yourself have just laid out so well and so succinctly.

I think greater matters were troubling him.

But I too doubt we'll really find out all of that.

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