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Daemos

This is all Jon’s fault

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On 5/15/2019 at 9:44 AM, Rose of Red Lake said:

Maybe she'll demand that Jon bring her Sansa's head. 

Fun stuff!

And then Jon does what Jamie does when Aerys demanded that Jamie bring him Tywin's head?

I'm in for that! 

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Jon is mostly to blame but not due to romantic issues.

He is supposed to be a ruler of men and in that role to be wise and politically astute. Dany needs to marry someone this side of the narrow sea and he is the natural candidate. Added to which is his hidden parentage which becomes a moot point if he is married to the other person with a strong claim, Who also happens to have a large army and dragons.

If he were anything more than a rather sulky looking young man who seems to be the worst military commander in history he would realise this. I.E. if he were someone who could justifiable sit on the IT for any other reason than his supposedly "good" character. 

What he should have done is realised the situation they were in, proposed, but been honest that it was going to take a while to get over the whole aunt thing. No deaths of hundreds of thousands, because it was no longer necessary. 

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On 5/14/2019 at 5:26 AM, Daemos said:

Disregarding the bad writing and execution, but what unfolded in this episode and last is all Jon’s fault. If he was there for Dany emotionally in her darkest hour, she would’ve never gone over the edge. She needed ice to keep her cool, but he betrayed her on so many levels. 

She even gave love one last chance when she tried to kiss him and he failed her then again. It was fear from then on, for good most likely.

 

This massacre is on that dumbass as much as it is on Dany. 

 

 

King's Landing is a treacherous hive of hateful fiends masquerading as hairless ape creatures that resemble human flesh. Only Old Town is more foul and more deserving of a good fiery fumigation.

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1 hour ago, JagLover said:

He is supposed to be a ruler of men and in that role to be wise and politically astute.

Jon was just 14 years old when he joined the Night's Watch. I'm not clear on how many years have passed to reach this point in the saga, but he's still just a kid. Wisdom and political savvy come with age and experience...no one is born with those qualities. 

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36 minutes ago, Lady Dayne said:

Jon was just 14 years old when he joined the Night's Watch. I'm not clear on how many years have passed to reach this point in the saga, but he's still just a kid. Wisdom and political savvy come with age and experience...no one is born with those qualities. 

Jon in the books is just 14 years old.

Jon in the TV show starts off at 17.

And to make matters worse, the 15-year-old book version of Jon is much more smarter than the 19-year-old show version of Jon.

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On 14 May 2019 at 12:57 PM, ummester said:

We don't need to judge the incestuous - nature does when their kids pop out with 2 heads :)

Besides this, you can love someone and not be able to get a boner for them. Could you imagine being in Jon's head - she's kinda hot, yea but she is my aunt. Yea but she is kind of hot, yea but remember Liza breastfeeding Sweet Robin (what happened to him, by the way?), that's what an aunt is. Jon's penis would be up and down like the Assyrian Empire, trying to reconcile if it had worthy motives to be erect or not. That would fail to temper Dany's desire and only serve to infuriate the Dragon Queen further.

Jon should be willing to take one for the team.  It's not as if they were raised together.

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On 5/14/2019 at 12:12 PM, Jabar of House Titan said:

The fact that D&D failed to reconcile Sansa and Jon's feelings towards Stannis Baratheon with Robb's desire for independence (or rather the rivermen's and the northmen's desires for independence) is yet another example of bad writing.

Sansa never believed in northern independence. She loves the songs and stories of the Seven Kingdoms of yore and Sansa has always wanted peace and security and family. Why does she care about northern independence now? And why has the northern independence movement become so anti-Targaryen when the Ironborn independence movement (the Ironborn of all people!!!) is staunchly pro-Dany.

Exactly! The moment Sansa saw those dragons she should of realized that trying to go independent would have a very uncertain future. She has just gotten her family and home back.  Being adversarial to Dany would get her and the north nothing good. Sansa would have used her  courtesies as a weapon and made friends with her (like Margery did with her), then push for Dany and Jon to marry. Thus, making them all family. Going independent was the only option with Cersei on the throne but with the arrival of Dany, the game changed. 

Show Sansa is acting like Littlefinger. Pulling stings and getting a lot of other people killed.

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OP 

His mistake was telling Sansa and telling Dany. If he never intended to press the claim he need never have told them. He could simply have quietly distanced himself from Dany and not made her feel threatened. He failed to be meet the example of Ned and tell an uncomfortable lie to the people he loved. That is absolutely on him and now he has to kill Dany like he killed Ygritte. His suicide would also be appreciated at the point.

A good comparison is the books when Barristan tells Dany about Jorah. It really shakes her to the core that Jorah could have ever betrayed her and really feeds into her isolation and paranoia in ADWD. I am not sure Jorah was protecting Dany from a he’d truth but it’s a good example how the truth can do more damage than a lie.

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Posted (edited)

He's lied in the books before, so this is a rewrite. Hell, Ned told the biggest and best lie of them all so Jon could too. I think in the books, the word would get out in other ways. Jon will lie to her at some point.

ETA: Dany is the only one who made this absolute hell for him.

Edited by Rose of Red Lake

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12 minutes ago, Rose of Red Lake said:

He's lied in the books before, so this is a rewrite. Hell, Ned told the biggest and best lie of them all so Jon could too. I think in the books, the word would get out in other ways. Jon will lie to her at some point.

ETA: Dany is the only one who made this absolute hell for him.

 

Yes but Dany was essentially entirely reacting to what other characters were doing. Jon knew it would hurt Dany to tell her that she might not get her throne. He knew that Sansa hated Dany. He knew that he didn’t want the claim himself. 

If he had not told her. Dany would have been less anxious to travel south and feel less threatened. She would have waited for a long siege and not travelled down to Dragonstone. Rhaegal and Missandei do t die. Hell she would probably view “the people don’t love me” more objectively as a “they don’t love me yet” if she’s wasn’t threatened made to feel threatened by Jon.

I would also add that him failing to get the drop on the Night King meant Dany had to save him, which put her at risk and in turn led to the death of Jorah. Which also helped push Dany over the edge. So he has that cross to bear as well.

He is the cause of Danys madness.

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Yes but Dany was essentially entirely reacting to what other characters were doing. Jon knew it would hurt Dany to tell her that she might not get her throne. He knew that Sansa hated Dany. He knew that he didn’t want the claim himself. 

If he had not told her. Dany would have been less anxious to travel south and feel less threatened. She would have waited for a long siege and not travelled down to Dragonstone. Rhaegal and Missandei do t die. Hell she would probably view “the people don’t love me” more objectively as a “they don’t love me yet” if she’s wasn’t threatened made to feel threatened by Jon.

I would also add that him failing to get the drop on the Night King meant Dany had to save him, which put her at risk and in turn led to the death of Jorah. Which also helped push Dany over the edge. So he has that cross to bear as well.

He is the cause of Danys madness.

 

I don't see why Jon needed to lie about.

He already bent the knee, he even didn't lie in front of Cersei and the Lannisters, when they thought they could take help from them if he lied, that's how he is, he can't lie.

If Dany goes mad just because Jon can't lie, it's Dany's fault not Jon's.

It means that Dany is so power hungry and a cruel tyrant that she was just using that ''The last Targaryen'' card as an excuse for ruling Westeros, now everyone can see the true nature of Dany. She has no intention of sharing the power with anyone, and she can kill everyone for that purpose only.

Edited by Erkan12

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13 minutes ago, Erkan12 said:

I don't see why Jon needed to lie about.

He already bent the knee, he even didn't lie in front of Cersei and the Lannisters, when they thought they could take help from them if he lied, that's how he is, he can't lie.

If Dany goes mad just because Jon can't lie, it's Dany's fault not Jon's.

It means that Dany is so power hungry and a cruel tyrant that she was just using that ''The last Targaryen'' card as an excuse for ruling Westeros, now everyone can see the true nature of Dany. She has no intention of sharing the power with anyone, and she can kill everyone for that purpose only.

 

Because people do start plotting against her. It’s strongly implied by Varys that the nobles and people of Westeros will rise to try and put him on the throne. That knowledge is incredibly dangerous.

Dany sacrifices more than anyone else to save Westeros from the Night King. She did the right thing to protect the realm, losing half her army and Jorah. Those aren’t the actions of a cruel tyrant. 

Dany was willing to marry him and share power with him by definition.

Oh I am sorry, I just don’t buy the stoic man who refuses power deserves it trope. I’d want somebody who’s actually invested in the role. It’s just insipid and false modesty. What has he actually achieved or done? He would be dead a half dozen times over if Dany had not came to help him. If Sansa hadn’t helped him. If Melisandre had not resurrected him. Etc etc. He is a joke and would make a terrible King. 

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On 5/15/2019 at 4:26 PM, Damon_Tor said:

Eddard's parents were first cousins.

So Jon and Sansa could marry?   :)

I would think both would have reservation about that, being brought up as brother and sister.

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2 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Because people do start plotting against her. It’s strongly implied by Varys that the nobles and people of Westeros will rise to try and put him on the throne. That knowledge is incredibly dangerous.

Dany sacrifices more than anyone else to save Westeros from the Night King. She did the right thing to protect the realm, losing half her army and Jorah. Those aren’t the actions of a cruel tyrant. 

Dany was willing to marry him and share power with him by definition.

Oh I am sorry, I just don’t buy the stoic man who refuses power deserves it trope. I’d want somebody who’s actually invested in the role. It’s just insipid and false modesty. What has he actually achieved or done? He would be dead a half dozen times over if Dany had not came to help him. If Sansa hadn’t helped him. If Melisandre had not resurrected him. Etc etc. He is a joke and would make a terrible King. 

It's the game, of course people can plot against her. If people believes she has no right to the throne, and she doesn't have a legal right, then she needs to deal with that people as well. It's not Jon's fault that Varys loses his faith in Dany, or other people. If you think she is a better ruler and would be a good ruler then people can see that as well, but somehow they don't see that, instead they see another tyrant.

She lost half of her army, that's good. If not for Jon and Arya, she would lose the entire Westeros, they both needed each other to survive. You're acting like WW were only a northern problem and not a global problem. Without Jon's and Sam's knowledge about the WW, as well as Bran's knowledge, Night King and his dead army would slaughter Dany's army and she couldn't defeat the Night King. It was necessary for her to join the North, which is why Jon and Davos specifically said that ''You'll be ruling over a graveyard if we don't defeat the night king.''

Sansa asked Jon's help to save Winterfell, and went to the Wall to seek his help, of course she had to help Jon in return.

Well, Varys and Tyrion knows about one or two things about the kings, and they all believe Jon > Dany as a ruler. Tyrion only betrayed Varys because he didn't want to believe Dany would burn the children at KL, and now he has seen it.

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16 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Dany sacrifices more than anyone else to save Westeros from the Night King. She did the right thing to protect the realm, losing half her army and Jorah. Those aren’t the actions of a cruel tyrant. 

Counter example, from the real world.  The Soviets under Stalin lost more than anyone fighting Germany in WW2.  But Stalin was still a cruel tyrant.

In world, Cersei could have sent the Lannister Army north to fight in the Great War.  But she still would have been a cruel tyrant.

 

16 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Dany was willing to marry him and share power with him by definition.

Sorry, but no, she was not.

I take Varys observation at his word - Dany was not willing to share power with anyone.  At best, Jon would be Prince Consort, like Phillip today. 

Dany became to used to being the last Targaryen and also ruling (eg: Merreen, the Dothraki) as a single all-powerful autocrat.

 

16 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Oh I am sorry, I just don’t buy the stoic man who refuses power deserves it trope. I’d want somebody who’s actually invested in the role. It’s just insipid and false modesty. What has he actually achieved or done? He would be dead a half dozen times over if Dany had not came to help him. If Sansa hadn’t helped him. If Melisandre had not resurrected him. Etc etc. He is a joke and would make a terrible King. 

 

Jon has achieved quite a lot.   He was instrumental in bringing together the forces that defeated the NK.  Without him, that would not have happened.

He just might be a terrible King.  But battle experience and ability don't necessarily make a good King.  Jon is not a politician and (so far) misses how his decisions affect the 'nation politic'.  Those are bad qualities for a King to have.  

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That is the series telling us he is a good King. They have done nothing to show us that he is a good King.

If you had tried to get me to pick up the series on budget Aragorn joining the rangers to fight zombies I would have given you a very long look. 

The reason I liked Dany was because she was treated as her own character rather than in say, the Wheel of Time where they’re pottering on with finding the weather flute or Stormlight where Shallan has to be yet another female rogue archtype. So for that character to become just another Ygritte is backhanded. Especially because, as mentioned above I do not care for that character whatsoever and could not relate to his grief in killing her. Which I am not sure was the stories intent. I think they very much wanted me to be putting myself in Jon’s shoes for season 7 and 8. So I can’t like the story.

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2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

OP  he has to kill Dany like he killed Ygritte.

Jon killed Ygritte?  In the show, Ollie killed Ygritte.

 

2 hours ago, Tyrion1991 said:

His suicide would also be appreciated at the point.

Not by me. 

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Just now, Tywin Tytosson said:

Jon killed Ygritte?  In the show, Ollie killed Ygritte.

 

Not by me. 

 

His choice in siding with the Watch killed Ygritte.

Thats a Blackadder reference to Field Marshall Haig. “His resignation and suicide ought to cheer up the men”. I mean looking at the Battle of the Bastards I don’t think Haig lost that great a proportion of his men due to incompetent generalship. Jon gets a pass on this just like he always does with his plot armour.

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2 hours ago, Lady's Secret said:

Exactly! The moment Sansa saw those dragons she should of realized that trying to go independent would have a very uncertain future. She has just gotten her family and home back.  Being adversarial to Dany would get her and the north nothing good. Sansa would have used her  courtesies as a weapon and made friends with her (like Margery did with her), then push for Dany and Jon to marry. Thus, making them all family. Going independent was the only option with Cersei on the throne but with the arrival of Dany, the game changed. 

Show Sansa is acting like Littlefinger. Pulling stings and getting a lot of other people killed.

Thank you for pointing out the bold part.

Book Sansa and Show Sansa have had completely different stories for a long time now but this is where the divide between the two becomes humongous.

Even if she hated Daenerys, Book Sansa has a deep appreciation for romanticism and she is the type of girl that loves a wedding. And she also is very good at disarming people with her charms even though she herself doesn't particularly care for them.

It's like Show Sansa turned into an meaner, darker version of Arianne Martell.

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3 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

His choice in siding with the Watch killed Ygritte.

I fail to see the direct causality here.

 

3 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

Thats a Blackadder reference to Field Marshall Haig. “His resignation and suicide ought to cheer up the men”. I mean looking at the Battle of the Bastards I don’t think Haig lost that great a proportion of his men due to incompetent generalship. Jon gets a pass on this just like he always does with his plot armour.

Comparing BotB to the Somme, or to Ypres?  Yikes.

The Starks won the BotB, which is what counts.  Haig didn't win his big battles.  Proportion or not, 400,000 casualties is quite bad.

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