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This is all Jon’s fault

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12 minutes ago, JagLover said:

I'm hoping to see a calm rational Dany next episode and yes if she did say that she would be mostly right. 

Jon didnt burn a million people alive. Dany would be scapegoating, something psychopaths do. But sure lets believe whatever she says to feel better about her war crimes.

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46 minutes ago, JagLover said:

I think this is rather unfair. I imagine one reason that the WOT is being picked up for as a TV show is half the characters are female, most with very distinctive personalities, set in a world where the original sin was that of man not of woman.

Most of the female characters are not concerned with political power because they have none. Where a female character (Elayne) does have such a claim she fights for her throne. 

The only criticism I would have from that perspective is that the bitching dial often gets turned up to 11. 

 

Yes WoT has a large cast of female characters and in terms that of “power level” most of them by a few books in are (absurdly in some cases) more powerful than Dany with Drogon. By the final book Egwene could probably nuke a city instantly and the rest could just take their time.

The issue for me was how RJ chose to focus on the small scale stuff for most of their story. In the early books they are tagging along with Rand on his adventure. Then there’s the plot with the Weather flute. Then there’s them sneaking around in the circus. Some of these are quite characterful moments. All the wrangling as Egwene becomes amyrilin. But they aren’t particularly cool. It’s very late in the story that Egwene has to fight against the Seanchan, or Elayne for her throne and IMO we had to wait for the Last Battle before they were given room to seriously cut loose. 

Compare that to Perrin and Rands storylines which are very much large scale epic fantasy with lots of cool moments throughout.

The same could be said with Daenerys. Even though for most of the series she is significantly weaker than any of the female characters in WoT her story is always depicted as being important and she has lots of cool moments throughout.

This is partly due to RJ rigorously wanting the girls to follow their oaths as Aes Sedai to not kill, but at the same time putting them in situations where they couldn’t (or were prevented with the Gollum) from using their powers. You don’t have, as you do in Rands/Perrins storyline, excuses to fight armies of Darkspawn or smack down the Seanchan. I found this to be annoying since it felt like he knew they were overpowered a few books in.

Oh I don’t mind the bitchiness. Nynaeve is one of the favourite characters. I mean honestly chills when she tricks Lan by dropping him on the wrong side of the Borderlands and raises the whole country

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1 hour ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Yes WoT has a large cast of female characters and in terms that of “power level” most of them by a few books in are (absurdly in some cases) more powerful than Dany with Drogon. By the final book Egwene could probably nuke a city instantly and the rest could just take their time.

The issue for me was how RJ chose to focus on the small scale stuff for most of their story. In the early books they are tagging along with Rand on his adventure. Then there’s the plot with the Weather flute. Then there’s them sneaking around in the circus. Some of these are quite characterful moments. All the wrangling as Egwene becomes amyrilin. But they aren’t particularly cool. It’s very late in the story that Egwene has to fight against the Seanchan, or Elayne for her throne and IMO we had to wait for the Last Battle before they were given room to seriously cut loose. 

Compare that to Perrin and Rands storylines which are very much large scale epic fantasy with lots of cool moments throughout.

The same could be said with Daenerys. Even though for most of the series she is significantly weaker than any of the female characters in WoT her story is always depicted as being important and she has lots of cool moments throughout.

This is partly due to RJ rigorously wanting the girls to follow their oaths as Aes Sedai to not kill, but at the same time putting them in situations where they couldn’t (or were prevented with the Gollum) from using their powers. You don’t have, as you do in Rands/Perrins storyline, excuses to fight armies of Darkspawn or smack down the Seanchan. I found this to be annoying since it felt like he knew they were overpowered a few books in.

Oh I don’t mind the bitchiness. Nynaeve is one of the favourite characters. I mean honestly chills when she tricks Lan by dropping him on the wrong side of the Borderlands and raises the whole country

I think you have perhaps overstated the power level, Egwene for example would have been needing to hold the Choedan kal to destroy an entire city in one hit. Nynaeve was a lot stronger (on a level with some male forsaken from what I remember) but even she would have needed a decent Angreal to destroy a city the size of KL in one strike.

They were also not bound by the oaths for most of the book series and just didn't kill lots of people most of the time because they were trying to avoid it (hardly a crime).

I think the issue with WOT is that Robert Jordan didn't really know how to finish the story properly so we tread water with McGuffins and the girls are often off seeking them out. During this time Rand himself often doesn't have that much to do so he treads water just while not seeking out a McGuffin. Not that much materially different.

Egwene and Aviendha take part in the battle of Cairhein as well, which is one of the last major battles before the plot goes into stasis.  Yes you could say that the female characters are subordinate to Rand and often important due to their connection to him, but then so are all the male characters. He is the chosen one after all, the dragon riding again on the winds of time. That doesn't mean that say Egwene, is any less concerned with winning the final battle than he is.

Nynaeve was one of my favourites as well but in terms of bitchiness I was talking more of all the countless scenes where large groups of women act like strange cats being brought together when they interact with one another. Nynaeve just had a bit of a temper on her. 
 

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6 minutes ago, JagLover said:

I think you have perhaps overstated the power level, Egwene for example would have been needing to hold the Choedan kal to destroy an entire city in one hit. Nynaeve was a lot stronger (on a level with some male forsaken from what I remember) but even she would have needed a decent Angreal to destroy a city the size of KL in one strike.

They were also not bound by the oaths for most of the book series and just didn't kill lots of people most of the time because they were trying to avoid it (hardly a crime).

I think the issue with WOT is that Robert Jordan didn't really know how to finish the story properly so we tread water with McGuffins and the girls are often off seeking them out. During this time Rand himself often doesn't have that much to do so he treads water just while not seeking out a McGuffin. Not that much materially different.

Egwene and Aviendha take part in the battle of Cairhein as well, which is one of the last major battles before the plot goes into stasis.  Yes you could say that the female characters are subordinate to Rand and often important due to their connection to him, but then so are all the male characters. He is the chosen one after all, the dragon riding again on the winds of time. That doesn't mean that say Egwene, is any less concerned with winning the final battle than he is.

Nynaeve was one of my favourites as well but in terms of bitchiness I was talking more of all the countless scenes where large groups of women act like strange cats being brought together when they interact with one another. Nynaeve just had a bit of a temper on her. 
 

 

Yes with the various magical items they have that boost their power. I think with that Egwene basically destroys an army from an empire implied to be equivalent to the Seanchan in one shot. 

You are right the Battle of Cairhein is  the exception that proves the rule. From this point until the final few books the girls don’t really have a chance to use their powers. Considering how long the WoT was and that we’re constantly told OMG they’re so powerful that was a little disappointing.

See I felt that Rand and Perrin were given important stuff to do. Taking back the Two Rivers, Battling the Seanchan, the assassination attempts with the Forsken, Faile being abducted, Rand being captured. The Darkspawn invasion of one of the Kingdoms. Curing the taint. Attempting to compel the Seanchan into joining the fight. His struggle with madness. There’s a lot more going on with Rand and Perrin. Even Matt, despite being the rogue, does get to command a mercenary company and set up his relationship with Tuon.

So I didn’t feel as if he did much with those characters in the novels. There parts are much more low key and feel less important.

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13 minutes ago, Tyrion1991 said:

 

Yes with the various magical items they have that boost their power. I think with that Egwene basically destroys an army from an empire implied to be equivalent to the Seanchan in one shot. 

You are right the Battle of Cairhein is  the exception that proves the rule. From this point until the final few books the girls don’t really have a chance to use their powers. Considering how long the WoT was and that we’re constantly told OMG they’re so powerful that was a little disappointing.

See I felt that Rand and Perrin were given important stuff to do. Taking back the Two Rivers, Battling the Seanchan, the assassination attempts with the Forsken, Faile being abducted, Rand being captured. The Darkspawn invasion of one of the Kingdoms. Curing the taint. Attempting to compel the Seanchan into joining the fight. His struggle with madness. There’s a lot more going on with Rand and Perrin. Even Matt, despite being the rogue, does get to command a mercenary company and set up his relationship with Tuon.

So I didn’t feel as if he did much with those characters in the novels. There parts are much more low key and feel less important.

Fair enough if you felt like that way. Speaking personally I was always as happy hanging out with Nynaeve, Egwene and Elyane as I was with Rand, Perrin and Matt. Most of their missions were presented to me as being very important as well.

I wouldn't put Robert Jordan in the same category as a GRRM or Tolkein but many of the themes he developed in his worldbuilding were quite interesting in the area of relations between the sexes. From the fact that the original sin was male rather than female and how this had led to women having far more political importance, to the rules of his magic system.  Primarily the idea that individually the average woman was weaker than the average man, but by working collectively they would be stronger. 

Anyhow be interested to see if this new TV series will be a genuine attempt to bring the books to the screen or just dumbed down schlock for the masses. The fact that it is going to be made by Amazon Prime, and the example of GOT, gives me hope that it will be the former. If they are going down that road they are going to need some great writers though as it is not an easy adaption. 

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